92,000 BSA sex abuse claims

[IHAQ]

I asked about the practical procedure problem because I cannot see how a comp experience would leave a scout vulnerable. The leader is completely outnumbered and only has partial contruol of any of the event. I would expect that isolation from the group would be necessary for sexual predation.

I would not say that I do not believe that problem could happen, clearly there is evidence that it did though your comment about because there were lots of lds scout groups then the lds scout groups must of been involved does not hold logically. A more careful comment would be some lds groups may have been involved.

For protection of youth it is important to look at that question of how these things were done when they were done. Organizations need to have a clear understanding of where danger points lie. Youth need to have clear understanding of where danger points lie.

I could note that my training as a youth did not include much in the way of tactical warnings.It was more general and focused upon taking individual responsibility, respecting yourself and others. I actually think those basic instructions have served me in a positive way. They are part(along with scouting) of the limited package of things from my Mormon upbringing that I hold in a positive light. But Lem you presented a bit of a puzzle for me. I am a bit older and little factories and licked cupcakes played not memorable role in the teaching I received. From the references to these ways of teaching I have heard I do wonder if they do a much inferior job of teaching making wise moral decisions with your own responsibility and free agency.

Generally sexual predation of minors does not take place in an instant. Predators don't just abuse an individual at random there and then without any build up. They don't just walk up to a boy in front of the group and start abusing them. Sexual predators pick out the weak and the vulnerable. The loners, the ones with troubled backgrounds who don't fit in with the rest of the troop etc. Over time they befriend these individuals (grooming) so they become trusted and then they gradually escalate their behaviour over time. You didn't see it because from a distance it would look innocuous. It would be a friendly scoutmaster helping that boy who seemed a bit odd to you. A hug here and there. A bit of one to one help with something that individual was struggling with etc. As a scout you would have been drilled to trust your scoutmaster. It wouldn't have entered your head that he was selecting and grooming his prey. At that age you would not have noticed it and you were trained to trust your Scout Leader. You wouldn't have given it a second thought.

I don't think it's the responsibility of the young people to stop it. That seems close to victim blaming. It's also simply untenable - how do you train scouts to not trust their scoutmasters? And if you succeeded, where would that leave things? The problem is systemic and it needs to start with proper vetting (something the LDS Church refuses to do for some reason) and proper protocols about the ratio of leaders to children in any given circumstance. Especially on trips and activities away from parents. I'd suggest for any away trip involving scoutmasters to also require a number of parent supervisors on the trip. Leaders need to be trained to spot predatory behaviour. Parents need that training. It sounds extreme, but predators seek out organisations where they can most easily get access to their victims. They proactively target positions in Scouting and Churches because they get easy and unsupervised access to their potential victims and passing the vetting process for such positions is comparatively easy.

[Lem]

your comment about because there were lots of lds scout groups then the lds scout groups must of been involved does not hold logically. A more careful comment would be some lds groups may have been involved.

I disagree. First, some quick statistics about the extensive lds presence that used to be in Scouting:

2019 — In Utah, where 90 percent of the state's 200,000 scouts are members of Mormon troops....

2019 — About 70% of Boy Scout troops in Arizona are chartered by the church, while in the northern Arizona district the percentage is higher...

In 2013, more than a third (37 percent) of troops were LDS....

2018 — Scouts in LDS troops currently make up about 20 percent of BSA membership. Historically, that number has reached as high as one-third....


IHAQ’s comment perfectly explains further on what I am basing my opinion:

but predators seek out organisations where they can most easily get access to their victims. They proactively target positions in Scouting and Churches because they get easy and unsupervised access to their potential victims.

When we sent our children to the Catholic school in our parish (after I left the lds church where I had spent decades holding lds positions with little to no supervision or training), I was completely surprised at the rigorous vetting required of every single person who held a volunteer position in the church and school. Every person had to be fingerprinted, fill out pages of documentation, submit to an extensive background check, and be certified through attendance at a 6 hour program on keeping children safe. There were ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS. The joke was that you couldn’t so much as put out the napkins at lunchtime without being on the official volunteer list. It also had to be reviewed every two years, and re-certification through the course was required every four years. These requirements held for every church position in our entire Diocese, and to my knowledge, is required in Catholic schools in every Diocese in the US.

One of the most shocking parts of that certification program was having to watch a video of multiple sexual predators expound, at length and in great detail, on the methods used to target children and youth. IHAQ’s comment that they proactively target associations with more lax requirements is exactly correct. Predators are willing to spend months or even years infiltrating such associations. It was shocking and sickening. It was then that I understood how utterly defenseless Mormon children and youth are in the face of issues like this. There was virtually no oversight when I was growing up, and I’m not aware of much more being in place now.

I don't think it's the responsibility of the young people to stop it. That seems close to victim blaming. It's also simply untenable - how do you train scouts to not trust their scoutmasters? And if you succeeded, where would that leave things? The problem is systemic and it needs to start with proper vetting (something the LDS Church refuses to do for some reason) and proper protocols about the ratio of leaders to children in any given circumstance. Especially on trips and activities away from parents. I'd suggest for any away trip involving scoutmasters to also require a number of parent supervisors on the trip. Leaders need to be trained to spot predatory behaviour. Parents need that training. It sounds extreme, but predators seek out organisations where they can most easily get access to their victims. They proactively target positions in Scouting and Churches because they get easy and unsupervised access to their potential victims and passing the vetting process for such positions is comparatively easy.

I couldn’t agree more.

[Lem]

I am a bit older and little factories and licked cupcakes played not memorable role in the teaching I received. From the references to these ways of teaching I have heard I do wonder if they do a much inferior job of teaching....

A little bit off topic, but I wanted to come back and say to huckelberry, I agree with you completely here. I can't speak for the factory speech but I have no argument with concluding that telling girls they are like licked cupcakes that no man will want to marry if they commit what the lds church considers sexual sin is indeed an extremely inferior method of teaching.

[huckelberry]

I am a bit older and little factories and licked cupcakes played not memorable role in the teaching I received. From the references to these ways of teaching I have heard I do wonder if they do a much inferior job of teaching....

A little bit off topic, but I wanted to come back and say to huckelberry, I agree with you completely here. I can't speak for the factory speech but I have no argument with concluding that telling girls they are like licked cupcakes that no man will want to marry if they commit what the lds church considers sexual sin is indeed an extremely inferior method of teaching.

Lem, I appreciated your responses here but was uncertain how to respond back. I was just fishing around for a bit more understanding than I have for what has happened. I do have desire to protect outdoor, camping and related scout type activities for young people. I would also wish that young people are protected from predators. Poor instruction may be a problem in a variety of ways. I think explicit instruction to youth on avoiding predatory situations and individuals is important and was not included in my youthful instruction. I think it is important for moral instruction to focus on responsible relationships with others, and to oneself. It should not be the degrading fear manipulations that churchs can fall into.

I was startled by your comment about being trained to trust and obey the leader. I first thought that I was never asked to see a scout leader that way and certainly did not volunteer such an attitude. I found second thoughts. Youth are surrounded by the general expectation of respect and follow teachers coaches and such. It would require no special singling out scout leader for those expections to be part of youths world view. Myself and fellow scouts were not a very proper scout group. We were a bit anti authoritarian and tended to be indifferent to all the scout competitive merit striving. I think all those merit badges and status striving could be used by an authoritarian leader with predatory designs as leverage. I see no sense in being against all compitition but the authoritarian power of leaders must be seen as and kept limited. Institutional expections and instruction could contribute to limits and a proper understanding of them.

On a recent thread there was discussion of situations giving rise to sense of Brotherhood of unsavory secrets.That sort of thing could play a part in this subject

[cinepro]

I am curious about how this works. My memory of scouting was there was no occasion I can remember where we were alone and vulnerable to a predatory leader. So how did this work in those places there was a problem? I was unaware of any problem happening.In an LDS setting how did a leader bypass the lengthy teaching scouts receive in the church about making responsible decisions resisting improper sexual activity.

Keep in mind that these cases go back decades. The strict emphasis on two-deep leadership and other counter-measures were, if my memory serves, implemented in the 1990s and 2000s. If the movie "Follow Me Boys" is any indication, outings with a single adult were the norm in the past, opening up the potential for abuse.

And even with the rules, the program is run imperfectly. I was a Cub Scout leader in a small ward, and more than once my assistant just failed to show up so I had to convince a parent to stick around.

[huckelberry]

I am curious about how this works. My memory of scouting was there was no occasion I can remember where we were alone and vulnerable to a predatory leader. So how did this work in those places there was a problem? I was unaware of any problem happening.In an LDS setting how did a leader bypass the lengthy teaching scouts receive in the church about making responsible decisions resisting improper sexual activity.

Keep in mind that these cases go back decades. The strict emphasis on two-deep leadership and other counter-measures were, if my memory serves, implemented in the 1990s and 2000s. If the movie "Follow Me Boys" is any indication, outings with a single adult were the norm in the past, opening up the potential for abuse.

And even with the rules, the program is run imperfectly. I was a Cub Scout leader in a small ward, and more than once my assistant just failed to show up so I had to convince a parent to stick around.

I realized that I should do some investigation of available information on what was happening and how it could happen. I found some youtube programs with real and specific information and undertook the unpleasant task of review. A Canadian news program did a good job. As was suggested by couple people above a key is extensive grooming. I saw that the grooming turned to activities well outside normal paths. In the presentation the fact that the scouting organization sat on the information it had instead of making it availible through out scouting and to the police was made central. i am thinking perhaps there was a fear of changing the pure image of scouting. That fear may have contributed to people failing to take notice when activities became irregular and should have sent up loud warning signals. An attachment to an image more pure than real could contribute to a lack of training and warning made to the scouts themselves. I was chided above about possibly victim blaming because a wondered how scout self protection failed. Lems comments pointed out to me that what training in sexual decision we received did not include warnings and danger signs of grooming for sexual predation. Did people think we were to young to think about such dangers? It is not that I would wish to blame the young men but I do wish they could be better armed with understanding I wish they could be armed with an understanding of dangers and that they can report problems.

Cinepro, i did look up an article about Scout policy. Making two adults official policy was more recent than many of these past problems. My experience in Scouting was the first half of the 1960s. I do not remember any out church excursion with less than two adults but I do not know if that was required official policy or just preferred policy. I found a You tube excerpt from this movie you mention. Some fellow leading a march of rows of scouts while he reminisces about his military drill instructor. Bizarre and utterly outside of any scout experience I was forced into.
There is probably significant variation in scout experiences. I found close friends who trusted and helped each other and scout masters who could be often forgotten or left out. I am certainly horrified that such times could for some people be turned into fear abuse and mistrust. Better protection is a must.

[Lem]

I realized that I should do some investigation of available information on what was happening and how it could happen. I found some youtube programs with real and specific information and undertook the unpleasant task of review. A Canadian news program did a good job. As was suggested by couple people above a key is extensive grooming. I saw that the grooming turned to activities well outside normal paths. In the presentation the fact that the scouting organization sat on the information it had instead of making it availible through out scouting and to the police was made central. i am thinking perhaps there was a fear of changing the pure image of scouting. That fear may have contributed to people failing to take notice when activities became irregular and should have sent up loud warning signals. An attachment to an image more pure than real could contribute to a lack of training and warning made to the scouts themselves. I was chided above about possibly victim blaming because a wondered how scout self protection failed. Lems comments pointed out to me that what training in sexual decision we received did not include warnings and danger signs of grooming for sexual predation. Did people think we were to young to think about such dangers? It is not that I would wish to blame the young men but I do wish they could be better armed with understanding I wish they could be armed with an understanding of dangers and that they can report problems.

Cinepro, i did look up an article about Scout policy. Making two adults official policy was more recent than many of these past problems. My experience in Scouting was the first half of the 1960s. I do not remember any out church excursion with less than two adults but I do not know if that was required official policy or just preferred policy. I found a You tube excerpt from this movie you mention. Some fellow leading a march of rows of scouts while he reminisces about his military drill instructor. Bizarre and utterly outside of any scout experience I was forced into.
There is probably significant variation in scout experiences. I found close friends who trusted and helped each other and scout masters who could be often forgotten or left out. I am certainly horrified that such times could for some people be turned into fear abuse and mistrust. Better protection is a must.

I agree, huckelberry, about the variation in experiences. I didn't mean to imply the concept of youth experiences in scouting was all bad, I'm just still in shock over what my relative told me. It is just heart breaking. Your investigation looked pretty thorough, I'm impressed!! but oh boy do I agree at how unpleasant it can be- but absolutely necessary. I agree, we need this knowledge in order to know how to protect our children, and to teach them how to protect themselves as much as possible.