Of course, completely agreed there. Do you think they were looking at a hastily produced prop or do you think Joseph convinced them they saw something when nothing was there?
I think there was a prop. I also think that Joseph may have believed, however, that somewhere real plates did exist. I subscribe to a version of Taves' view of the plates. Joseph makes the plates and they in a sense become the plates, although I don't go in for her uniquely Catholic "transubstantiation of the plates" idea.
Of course, it is perfectly possible that he found *something.* It is not as though North America lacked buried indigenous artifacts. I do not believe, however, that what he found was a record of Hebrew Christians avant la lettre. That part of it is coming from Joseph Smith himself (or revelation, if one prefers; I could say revelation in the sense of the Muses inspiring Homer).
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Enjoyed the episode. Having seen drumdudes reaction, I had that in mind while listening. I had to actually go back and watch parts of it again to convince myself I was following Kish's point. Kish reads the statement of the three witnesses.
The witnesses testify that the plates were real physical objects (or so the apologists claim).
Well that's just it. My impression is that Kish may be intentionally not starting the conversation where the apologists want to start it. The three witness statement says that they saw the plates, plates contain history of Nephites, know that it was translated by the gift and power of God by his very voice, know of a surety the work is true, saw the engravings by the power of God not man (WTF?), angel came down and showed them plates and engravings, voice of Lord bears record.
This is one convoluted "witness".
Dan wants them to be witnesses like David Fravor engaging a tic-tac. Unfortunately, that just isn't possible given what they are attesting to.
It would be like claiming to see and engage a tic tac, that the hive mind of the Grays spoke to his mind of it's origins from Zeta Reticula and that it travelled by anti-gravity, knows of surety that element 115 powered it, that the tic-tac was shown by the power of the Gray hive mind and not the instruments of man, that a Gray alien appeared personally and showed the tic-tac and the element 115 that powers it, not the instruments of man, that the hive mind of the Grays spoke to his mind that what was happening was real, as it was happening.
It's not a an eye witness testimony of plates.
Bingo. The Three Witnesses are witnesses of the experience of a miracle.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
I think there was a prop. I also think that Joseph may have believed, however, that somewhere real plates did exist. I subscribe to a version of Taves' view of the plates. Joseph makes the plates and they in a sense become the plates, although I don't go in for her uniquely Catholic "transubstantiation of the plates" idea.
I never caught the "church history" bug, but I'd say the nature of the plates is a great mystery of Mormonism and the little research I've done there is very frustrating. Frustrating in the sense of, it's a good mystery that you'll never get the answer to. I don't think Joseph had a well-thought out con going. I think he was free-spirited and lived in the moment. What the plates were was in flux, and there is the passage of time, and people living day-to-day lives that weren't easy all around. It may make sense that there wasn't continuity from start to finish. There could have been multiple props or no props at all depending on the time and the individual.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
I never caught the "church history" bug, but I'd say the nature of the plates is a great mystery of Mormonism and the little research I've done there is very frustrating. Frustrating in the sense of, it's a good mystery that you'll never get the answer to. I don't think Joseph had a well-thought out con going. I think he was free-spirited and lived in the moment. What the plates were was in flux, and there is the passage of time, and people living day-to-day lives that weren't easy all around. It may make sense that there wasn't continuity from start to finish. There could have been multiple props or no props at all depending on the time and the individual.
I agree with everything you are saying here, aside from the word "con." Yes, at different times the object he was representing as the plates may have been different things, including a box of rocks. I think he had a book project that originated in his treasure digging, and that the book's narrative and the representation of the plates changed over time. I have spent a fair amount of time trying to understand how the descriptions of different sets of plates map onto the translation process and, frankly, I don't see how one can nail down a consistent account. It looks to me like there is improvisation going on here. The story develops over time. In the end, it looks, on the surface, to be plausible if you are open to the miracles, but once you try to "translate" this into a history of actual material objects used in a standard translation process between the two attempts to compose the book, it all falls apart, in my opinion.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
I never caught the "church history" bug, but I'd say the nature of the plates is a great mystery of Mormonism and the little research I've done there is very frustrating. Frustrating in the sense of, it's a good mystery that you'll never get the answer to. I don't think Joseph had a well-thought out con going. I think he was free-spirited and lived in the moment. What the plates were was in flux, and there is the passage of time, and people living day-to-day lives that weren't easy all around. It may make sense that there wasn't continuity from start to finish. There could have been multiple props or no props at all depending on the time and the individual.
I agree with everything you are saying here, aside from the word "con." Yes, at different times the object he was representing as the plates may have been different things, including a box of rocks. I think he had a book project that originated in his treasure digging, and that the book's narrative and the representation of the plates changed over time. I have spent a fair amount of time trying to understand how the descriptions of different sets of plates map onto the translation process and, frankly, I don't see how one can nail down a consistent account. It looks to me like there is improvisation going on here. The story develops over time. In the end, it looks, on the surface, to be plausible if you are open to the miracles, but once you try to "translate" this into a history of actual material objects used in a standard translation process between the two attempts to compose the book, it all falls apart, in my opinion.
It would be interesting to see the various descriptions mapped out in a chronology, to see if there’s a “direction of travel” in them. Similar to how the First Vision becomes grander and more embellished over time.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
