LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

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Doctor Steuss
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by Doctor Steuss »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Apr 19, 2025 3:58 pm
Lord of the Rings is considered by everyone to be fictional.
Not to Tolkienists that adhere to the Tolkienology belief that The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings are historical. You'd have to consult a Tolkienist on why The Hobbit and Leaf by Niggle aren't considered historical. I imagine like all religions, you'd probably find some outlier heathens who did grant Leaf by Niggle and The Hobbit at the very least, apocryphal status.

Incidentally, Lord of the Rings is fathoms more complex, and internally consistent, than the Book of Mormon could ever dream to be. It's like comparing Finnegans Wake to Hop on Pop.

I can only imagine what would have happened if Tolkien had pulled a Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard.
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Apr 19, 2025 3:58 pm
Moksha wrote:
Fri Apr 18, 2025 7:22 pm
For the most part, the men got along with the Elves and Dwarves and had no problem at all with the Hobbits.
This doesn't make sense to me. Flesh it out?

Lord of the Rings is considered by everyone to be fictional. The Book of Mormon is considered by many to be a historically based account of actual people who lived and breathed.

Your response doesn't seem to have much if anything to do with the post I made just previous to your response.

Regards,
MG
*bump-original post for the benefit of Steuss. Pay special attention to the word "many". I suppose I should have used the same descriptor for LofTR.
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Apr 29, 2025 8:02 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Apr 19, 2025 3:58 pm
This doesn't make sense to me. Flesh it out?

Lord of the Rings is considered by everyone to be fictional. The Book of Mormon is considered by many to be a historically based account of actual people who lived and breathed.

Your response doesn't seem to have much if anything to do with the post I made just previous to your response.

Regards,
MG
*bump-original post for the benefit of Steuss. Pay special attention to the word "many". I suppose I should have used the same descriptor for LofTR.
Yes, you should have. Because that then would be accurate and not a deliberate attempt at misleading people. It also makes a material difference to the comparison.

Lord of the Rings is considered by many to be fictional.
The Book of Mormon is considered by many to be fictional.

Those two statements are accurate. And the parallel is striking. Both books contain some telltale signs that confirm to many the fictional nature of their narratives. That being said, both books have people who believe them to be historical and factual for whom no amount of contrary objective evidence can dissuade them from that belief.

One difference, to drag this back on track, is that the fellowship of the ring didn’t exclude Elves from participation because of their race.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:44 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Apr 29, 2025 8:02 pm
*bump-original post for the benefit of Steuss. Pay special attention to the word "many". I suppose I should have used the same descriptor for LofTR.
Yes, you should have. Because that then would be accurate and not a deliberate attempt at misleading people. It also makes a material difference to the comparison.

Lord of the Rings is considered by many to be fictional.
The Book of Mormon is considered by many to be fictional.

Those two statements are accurate. And the parallel is striking. Both books contain some telltale signs that confirm to many the fictional nature of their narratives. That being said, both books have people who believe them to be historical and factual for whom no amount of contrary objective evidence can dissuade them from that belief.

One difference, to drag this back on track, is that the fellowship of the ring didn’t exclude Elves from participation because of their race.
Although...

Prompt: Are there any examples of racism in the Lord of the Rings trilogy?
The Lord of the Rings trilogy has faced criticism for elements interpreted as racially problematic, though Tolkien’s personal views and the narrative’s intent remain subjects of debate. Key points include:

Orcs and racial stereotypes:
Tolkien’s descriptions of Orcs have drawn scrutiny for echoing racist caricatures. In a private letter, he described them as “squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types”
. The use of terms like “black-skinned” and “wide and snuffling nostrils” for some Orcs further parallels anti-Black stereotypes, particularly Jim Crow-era dehumanization. Critics argue these descriptions frame Orcs as an irredeemable, inherently evil race, reinforcing colonialist narratives of “otherness”

.
Ethnic coding of good vs. evil:
The trilogy associates whiteness with purity (e.g., fair-skinned Elves as paragons of wisdom) and darkness with corruption. Sauron’s forces are often linked to “swarthy” or “dark” features, while heroic characters like Aragorn and Galadriel are depicted as pale
. This dichotomy has been criticized for perpetuating a racialized moral hierarchy

.
Debate over Tolkien's intent:
While Tolkien explicitly opposed Nazi ideology and condemned apartheid, his works reflect early 20th-century Eurocentric biases. Scholars note that the narrative’s reliance on “race-determines-behavior” logic-e.g., Orcs as inherently violent-mirrors racist pseudoscience. However, defenders argue that Orcs’ corruption stems from magical manipulation by Morgoth, not biological essentialism.

In summary, while Tolkien’s works are not overtly racist by design, they contain racialized imagery that critics argue perpetuates harmful stereotypes, particularly through the depiction of Orcs and the moral coding of physical traits.

Perplexity A.I.
Why are you willing to see racism in the Book of Mormon but not in the Lord of the Rings trilogy?

I would assume that now you are going to try and dissuade us from the possibility that there are racist undertones in the series.

Regards,
MG
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

Are there any examples of racism in The Book of Mormon?
Yes, there are passages in the *Book of Mormon* that many readers and scholars have interpreted as reflecting racist ideas, particularly concerning skin color and its association with righteousness or wickedness.

### Key Example: The Lamanites and Skin Color
One of the most frequently cited examples is in **2 Nephi 5:21**, which states:

> "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing... wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

This verse describes a curse placed on the Lamanites—descendants of Laman and Lemuel—who rebelled against God. The curse, according to the text, included a change in skin color to mark them as separate from the Nephites, who were portrayed as righteous.

### Interpretations and Context
- **Traditional LDS interpretation**: Many early Latter-day Saints interpreted this as a literal change in skin pigmentation, with darker skin seen as a sign of divine disfavor.
- **Modern LDS perspectives**: In more recent decades, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has disavowed racist interpretations. Leaders have emphasized that all people are equal in the sight of God and have downplayed or reinterpreted these passages as metaphorical or historical rather than doctrinal.
- **Scholarly critique**: Critics argue that these passages reflect 19th-century American racial ideas, suggesting that they are not ancient but reflective of the time when the *Book of Mormon* was published (1830).
Chat GPT
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:57 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 9:44 am

Yes, you should have. Because that then would be accurate and not a deliberate attempt at misleading people. It also makes a material difference to the comparison.

Lord of the Rings is considered by many to be fictional.
The Book of Mormon is considered by many to be fictional.

Those two statements are accurate. And the parallel is striking. Both books contain some telltale signs that confirm to many the fictional nature of their narratives. That being said, both books have people who believe them to be historical and factual for whom no amount of contrary objective evidence can dissuade them from that belief.

One difference, to drag this back on track, is that the fellowship of the ring didn’t exclude Elves from participation because of their race.
Although...

Prompt: Are there any examples of racism in the Lord of the Rings trilogy?
The Lord of the Rings trilogy has faced criticism for elements interpreted as racially problematic, though Tolkien’s personal views and the narrative’s intent remain subjects of debate. Key points include:

Orcs and racial stereotypes:
Tolkien’s descriptions of Orcs have drawn scrutiny for echoing racist caricatures. In a private letter, he described them as “squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types”
. The use of terms like “black-skinned” and “wide and snuffling nostrils” for some Orcs further parallels anti-Black stereotypes, particularly Jim Crow-era dehumanization. Critics argue these descriptions frame Orcs as an irredeemable, inherently evil race, reinforcing colonialist narratives of “otherness”

.
Ethnic coding of good vs. evil:
The trilogy associates whiteness with purity (e.g., fair-skinned Elves as paragons of wisdom) and darkness with corruption. Sauron’s forces are often linked to “swarthy” or “dark” features, while heroic characters like Aragorn and Galadriel are depicted as pale
. This dichotomy has been criticized for perpetuating a racialized moral hierarchy

.
Debate over Tolkien's intent:
While Tolkien explicitly opposed Nazi ideology and condemned apartheid, his works reflect early 20th-century Eurocentric biases. Scholars note that the narrative’s reliance on “race-determines-behavior” logic-e.g., Orcs as inherently violent-mirrors racist pseudoscience. However, defenders argue that Orcs’ corruption stems from magical manipulation by Morgoth, not biological essentialism.

In summary, while Tolkien’s works are not overtly racist by design, they contain racialized imagery that critics argue perpetuates harmful stereotypes, particularly through the depiction of Orcs and the moral coding of physical traits.

Perplexity A.I.
Why are you willing to see racism in the Book of Mormon but not in the Lord of the Rings trilogy?

I would assume that now you are going to try and dissuade us from the possibility that there are racist undertones in the series.

Regards,
MG
Can you explain the claim that The Lord Of The Rings trilogy contains racism?
The claim that *The Lord of the Rings* trilogy contains elements of racism is a topic of debate and interpretation. Critics of J.R.R. Tolkien's work have pointed to certain aspects of the books that, when viewed through a modern lens, may seem problematic. However, there are several arguments that can be made to dispute the claim of inherent racism in *The Lord of the Rings* trilogy.

1. **Historical and Contextual Understanding**:
- Tolkien wrote *The Lord of the Rings* during the mid-20th century, a time when racial and cultural views were significantly different from contemporary standards. While some of the language and imagery used in the books can be seen as problematic today, it’s important to understand the historical context in which Tolkien was writing.
- Many of Tolkien’s ideas about race, culture, and morality were shaped by his own experiences with World War I, his academic background in philology, and his deep Christian faith. He was critical of modernity, industrialization, and the forces of evil, and he viewed the story as a moral and mythological exploration rather than a political commentary on race.

2. **The Concept of “Race” in Middle-Earth**:
- In Middle-Earth, the concept of "race" often operates differently than in the real world. The different peoples—Elves, Dwarves, Men, Orcs, etc.—represent different cultures, languages, and worldviews. These are not necessarily direct analogs to human races but rather symbolic representations of good and evil, wisdom, strength, and corruption.
- For example, the Elves, Dwarves, and Men are distinct cultures with their own virtues, but they are not inherently superior or inferior based on race or ethnicity. Instead, their characteristics reflect their values and how they relate to the world around them. The Orcs, on the other hand, are corrupted creatures, created by evil forces, and are not depicted as a "race" in a traditional sense, but more as a manifestation of moral corruption.

3. **Moral Complexity**:
- Tolkien’s work presents a world where moral choices define the characters, rather than their racial or ethnic origins. Frodo Baggins, an ordinary hobbit, becomes the hero of the story not because of his race, but because of his courage and his ability to resist the corrupting influence of the One Ring.
- Similarly, characters like Aragorn, Gandalf, and Samwise demonstrate moral complexity and individuality. Aragorn is not simply defined by his royal lineage or his race as a Man, but by his personal qualities—courage, humility, and leadership. Gandalf transcends race, being a Maia, a spiritual being, and Sam is a loyal, brave friend who rises above the limited scope of hobbit life.

4. **Criticism of Totalitarianism and Dehumanization**:
- Tolkien was deeply concerned with the themes of power, control, and the dehumanization of individuals. The works often criticize the lust for power, as embodied by figures like Sauron and Saruman, who seek to dominate and manipulate others. The depiction of Sauron’s armies—such as the Orcs and Uruk-hai—can be seen not as a racial commentary but as a reflection of the dangers of unchecked power, the loss of individuality, and the destruction of free will.
- The dark forces in *The Lord of the Rings* are associated with moral corruption rather than a particular race or ethnicity. In fact, Tolkien himself expressed disdain for the idea of "race" as a determinant of value or worth, often discussing how evil corrupts individuals regardless of their origins.

5. **Tolkien’s Own Views on Race**:
- While Tolkien was undoubtedly a product of his time, there’s no substantial evidence that he held deeply racist views. In fact, he made several statements about the importance of fellowship and friendship across cultures. For instance, in his letters, he frequently addressed the notion that the various races in Middle-Earth must work together to overcome evil, and that each race had its own unique strengths and virtues.
- Tolkien was also personally anti-fascist, having been opposed to the rise of fascism and racism during his lifetime. His letters reveal his distaste for the ideologies of Nazism, which emphasized racial purity and hierarchy, and he was critical of the way some people misinterpreted his work.

6. **Cultural Diversity in Middle-Earth**:
- Middle-Earth is a diverse world, with different peoples, languages, and cultures coexisting. The narrative of *The Lord of the Rings* emphasizes cooperation and understanding between these diverse groups. The alliance of Men, Elves, Dwarves, and other free peoples in their struggle against Sauron is a central theme, demonstrating a message of unity in the face of overwhelming darkness.
- The book also features numerous positive portrayals of different cultures, such as the noble Riders of Rohan, the wise and ancient Elves of Lothlórien, and the humble but valiant Hobbits. Each of these groups is portrayed with dignity, and the ultimate victory of good is portrayed as a triumph of virtue over evil, not of one group’s superiority over another.

In conclusion, while *The Lord of the Rings* can be interpreted in various ways, a careful reading suggests that the themes of the work are more about the corrupting influence of power and the necessity of moral courage than about race or ethnicity in any traditional sense. The diversity of Middle-Earth is more reflective of cultural differences and individual virtues than of racial hierarchy.
chat GPT

I approve this message.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

Chat GPT wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:06 pm
[Whether or not The Lord of the Rings] contains elements of racism is a topic of debate and interpretation.
I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:06 pm
I approve this message.
Shortened your GPT response for you. And I agree.

The same is true with the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
MG
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 7:59 pm
Chat GPT wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:06 pm
[Whether or not The Lord of the Rings] contains elements of racism is a topic of debate and interpretation.
I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:06 pm
I approve this message.
Shortened your GPT response for you. And I agree.

The same is true with the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
MG
You've been warned about abbreviating a posters words before, it’s dishonest and bad faith posting. Why do you default to dishonesty when you’ve been found to be wrong? Actually, I don’t care why you do it, so don’t answer that.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
MG 2.0
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Posts: 5215
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Wed Apr 30, 2025 8:26 pm
I Have Questions wrote: Chat GPT wrote:↑
[Whether or not The Lord of the Rings] contains elements of racism is a topic of debate and interpretation.
IHQ wrote: I approve this message.
You've been warned about abbreviating a posters words before, it’s dishonest and bad faith posting. Why do you default to dishonesty when you’ve been found to be wrong? Actually, I don’t care why you do it, so don’t answer that.
What part of what is written is either not accurate or you don't agree with? (another question that will likely remain unanswered)

Regards,
MG
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