Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

[I Have Questions]

If this is true, would we find that this applies to all prophets, ancient and modern? You are correct in saying that leaders have not taught explicitly that there was not a worldwide flood. But they may very well have had their own thoughts in regards to the flood of Noah. Talmage went back and forth in regards to what he said or didn't say about progression between kingdoms of glory. What he taught changed as his situation changed and his thoughts evolved.

Regards,
MG

So, to sum up your position:

Every statement by a General Authority made from the pulpit at General Conference, and every statement made in official church publications such as the Ensign, church manuals, and seminary manuals, proclaims as gospel truth that the flood was literal, worldwide, and only Noah and his family survived, but some old dead GAs *may* have had doubts about that, which they kept private and which church members only found about decades after the GAs died.

What’s your point, exactly?

He is calling them all liars.

[Marcus]

So, to sum up your position:

Every statement by a General Authority made from the pulpit at General Conference, and every statement made in official church publications such as the Ensign, church manuals, and seminary manuals, proclaims as gospel truth that the flood was literal, worldwide, and only Noah and his family survived, but some old dead GAs *may* have had doubts about that, which they kept private and which church members only found about decades after the GAs died.

What’s your point, exactly?

He is calling them all liars.

Yes, and he's doing it based on his misinterpretation of his own quote. Morley first asked this:

MG, I must have missed this. Who among the General Authorities has taught differently?

MG then gave this quote and link:

Prophets and Apostles often have different opinions, and interpret scripture differently based on their knowledge, experience, and training. We should not expect absolute unity of knowledge based merely on their office.
https://benspackman.com/2021/08/james-e ... -kingdoms/

After which he first admitted to Morley that he incorrectly stated leaders have taught differently:

If this is true, would we find that this applies to all prophets, ancient and modern? You are correct in saying that leaders have not taught explicitly that there was not a worldwide flood. But they may very well have had their own thoughts in regards to the flood of Noah.

In spite of admitting what he said to Morley was not true, he doubled down on the idea with this interpretation of his link:

Talmage went back and forth in regards to what he said or didn't say about progression between kingdoms of glory. What he taught changed as his situation changed and his thoughts evolved..

However, if you follow the link and read the article, it states quite specifically that the change did not happen because Talmage's thoughts evolved. In MG's link, his biographer wrote:

...So naturally, while traveling with him, I took the liberty of asking him why he had changed his opinion on this subject. He smiled and said (in substance:) “I did not change my opinion; I always thought advancement from one glory to another to be impossible; but, you see, when I had prepared the manuscript for the first english edition— wherein I stated my belief in this impossibility— I had to submit the manuscript to a committee of the Twelve, and the majority of that committee was of a different opinion and they asked me to change it, which of course, I did. Later, in 1924, when I revised and rewrote the book for the twelfth edition, I was a member of the Quorum and had not to submit my manuscript to a committee and so I changed it back to the original version of some 24 years ago!”

So not only did MG admit he was wrong in his statement, his link says the opposite of the interpretation he stated. If anything, his link shows that LDS leaders expect agreement amongst themselves. If I recall correctly, Poehlman was forced to re-record his General Conference talk some years back for exactly that reason.

[I Have Questions]

He is calling them all liars.

Yes, and he's doing it based on his misinterpretation of his own quote. Morley first asked this:

MG, I must have missed this. Who among the General Authorities has taught differently?

MG then gave this quote and link:

Prophets and Apostles often have different opinions, and interpret scripture differently based on their knowledge, experience, and training. We should not expect absolute unity of knowledge based merely on their office.
https://benspackman.com/2021/08/james-e ... -kingdoms/

After which he first admitted to Morley that he incorrectly stated leaders have taught differently:

If this is true, would we find that this applies to all prophets, ancient and modern? You are correct in saying that leaders have not taught explicitly that there was not a worldwide flood. But they may very well have had their own thoughts in regards to the flood of Noah.

In spite of admitting what he said to Morley was not true, he doubled down on the idea with this interpretation of his link:

Talmage went back and forth in regards to what he said or didn't say about progression between kingdoms of glory. What he taught changed as his situation changed and his thoughts evolved..

However, if you follow the link and read the article, it states quite specifically that the change did not happen because Talmage's thoughts evolved. In MG's link, his biographer wrote:

...So naturally, while traveling with him, I took the liberty of asking him why he had changed his opinion on this subject. He smiled and said (in substance:) “I did not change my opinion; I always thought advancement from one glory to another to be impossible; but, you see, when I had prepared the manuscript for the first english edition— wherein I stated my belief in this impossibility— I had to submit the manuscript to a committee of the Twelve, and the majority of that committee was of a different opinion and they asked me to change it, which of course, I did. Later, in 1924, when I revised and rewrote the book for the twelfth edition, I was a member of the Quorum and had not to submit my manuscript to a committee and so I changed it back to the original version of some 24 years ago!”

So not only did MG admit he was wrong in his statement, his link says the opposite of the interpretation he stated. If anything, his link shows that LDS leaders expect agreement amongst themselves. If I recall correctly, Poehlman was forced to re-record his General Conference talk some years back for exactly that reason.

That’s a good summary of it. And yes, the link MG provided shows that the Quorum of Apostles expects unanimity, even coercing and pressurising those Apostles who do not immediately come to heel, into compliance. Poehlman is a good example, as is Talmage. They recruit new Apostles based on their willingness to be Yes men.

[MG 2.0]

If anything, his link shows that LDS leaders expect agreement amongst themselves.

Yes, that is true in regards to what is put out in the world. They present a united front. The correlated teachings will be what is taught. But thought is another thing. Different folks, including G.A.'s I would expect, don't see the world in exactly the same way. They may think differently on various things.

They have their own thoughts.

At times, they may keep those thoughts to themselves, other times they may share. We all do that.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

If anything, his link shows that LDS leaders expect agreement amongst themselves.

Yes, that is true in regards to what is put out in the world. They present a united front. The correlated teachings will be what is taught. But thought is another thing. Different folks, including G.A.'s I would expect, don't see the world in exactly the same way. They may think differently on various things.

They have their own thoughts.

At times, they may keep those thoughts to themselves, other times they may share. We all do that.

Regards,
MG

As your evidence that not everyone in Church leadership supports the idea of a global flood, you speculate that some General Authorities may have differing opinions about it that they're keeping to themselves.

[Marcus]

Yes, that is true in regards to what is put out in the world. They present a united front. The correlated teachings will be what is taught. But thought is another thing. Different folks, including G.A.'s I would expect, don't see the world in exactly the same way. They may think differently on various things.

They have their own thoughts.

At times, they may keep those thoughts to themselves, other times they may share. We all do that.

Regards,
MG

As your evidence that not everyone in Church leadership supports the idea of a global flood, you speculate that some General Authorities may have differing opinions about it that they're keeping to themselves.

And note that he presented his first piece of evidence with a link that he misinterpreted, which upon examination ended up NOT supporting his evidence.

Now he's moved on, without comment on his error, to another speculation.

It seems more like the arguments one would hear from an apologist who starts with a conclusion and then searches for a way to support it than an actual opinion. Not a reasonable approach.

Note also the goal post changing. Your original question:

MG, I must have missed this. Who among the General Authorities has taught differently?

Having been caught using a link that didn't support his original answer, his newest answer has changed. It is no longer what is "taught" that's different:

Yes, that is true in regards to what is put out in the world. They present a united front. The correlated teachings will be what is taught. But thought is another thing.

[MG 2.0]

Yes, that is true in regards to what is put out in the world. They present a united front. The correlated teachings will be what is taught. But thought is another thing. Different folks, including G.A.'s I would expect, don't see the world in exactly the same way. They may think differently on various things.

They have their own thoughts.

At times, they may keep those thoughts to themselves, other times they may share. We all do that.

Regards,
MG

As your evidence that not everyone in Church leadership supports the idea of a global flood, you speculate that some General Authorities may have differing opinions about it that they're keeping to themselves.

I think that's likely. General Authorities...previous to the correlation movement pushed by Harold B. Lee...had varying opinions in regards to evolution. I don't see where "the flood" would be much different.

Correlation has put to rest any independent opinions/thoughts that various G.A.'s might have that might be different from each other reaching the light of day. I suppose that in a worldwide church trying to reach the wide spectrum of humanity, this might not be too surprising. But it's too bad.

Sometimes I think it would be kind of cool to know what they actually think on one subject or another.

Correlation put a stop to that. Gone are the days of Widstoe, Eyring, and Roberts.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

As your evidence that not everyone in Church leadership supports the idea of a global flood, you speculate that some General Authorities may have differing opinions about it that they're keeping to themselves.

I think that's likely. General Authorities...previous to the correlation movement pushed by Harold B. Lee...had varying opinions in regards to evolution. I don't see where "the flood" would be much different.

Correlation has put to rest any independent opinions/thoughts that various G.A.'s might have that might be different from each other reaching the light of day. I suppose that in a worldwide church trying to reach the wide spectrum of humanity, this might not be too surprising. But it's too bad.

Sometimes I think it would be kind of cool to know what they actually think on one subject or another.

Correlation put a stop to that. Gone are the days of Widstoe, Eyring, and Roberts.

Regards,
MG

It's nice to read your critique of the Church. I agree with you on this.

Thanks.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

I think that's likely. General Authorities...previous to the correlation movement pushed by Harold B. Lee...had varying opinions in regards to evolution. I don't see where "the flood" would be much different.

MG, have you actually studied the church's position previous to the "correlation movement" in regards to the Flood? Can you provide some statements/position of church leaders, previous to correlation that denied the Flood was global or literal?

[Dr Exiled]

MG 2.0.:

I'm enjoying sipping an IPA at the moment wondering why you continue to defend the thing over here when you know it won't change minds. Just come over here already and join us. We don't even know who you are in reality and so what does it matter? IPA's are delicious and so are other adult beverages and there is nothing wrong with it. The archaic leader based propaganda about alcohol consumption was based on Joseph Smith wanting to placate his wife that probably had suspicions about his nighttime "revelations" that "called" him to make visits to god's children during the night. He had firm revelations and her role as first helpmeet required obedience. The alcohol thing was giving in to his ____________ to get her to be quiet about other more important and deeper doctrinal subjects that she could not fathom.