Bond...James Bond wrote:Wow, Really??? what game? Creators must have had alot of knowledge to know in a scrap of history like deseret.
It's called "Hearts of Iron II: Doomsday." It's the single best and most detailed grand strategic-level WWII computer game in existence. Nothing else even comes close.
The official site is here. You can get a pretty good overview via the trailer here.
Smart Bitch wrote:And look at what UTAH has become....I hav heard that pretty soon you will have to show your Mormon CARD to get in...
you can get out...but to get back in you must show your Mormon CARD...that is okay I am fine with staying out of UTAH
Smart Bitch, where on earth did you get that idea?
MormonMendacity wrote:Second, I think that if he could have really gotten the Deseret Alphabet rolling he could have controlled the Saints even more. By controlling what people could read he would have a very powerful way of controlling thought. I do not believe he had the Deseret Alphabet invented to help immigrants learn English. I believe it was far more powerful as a tool to control.
WOW, WOW, WOW!!! I had never made that connection before, but now that you mention it, it makes PERFECT sense! Here I'd thought the Deseret Alphabet was nothing more than a crackpot experiment, but I can now see that it was a form of Newspeak for truly Orwellian purposes.
Thanks Shades,
Bond
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
Dr. Shades wrote:WOW, WOW, WOW!!! I had never made that connection before, but now that you mention it, it makes PERFECT sense! Here I'd thought the Deseret Alphabet was nothing more than a crackpot experiment, but I can now see that it was a form of Newspeak for truly Orwellian purposes.
Now I feel I have been righteously mocked.
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder" --Homer Simpson's version of Pascal's Wager
Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool.
Religion is ignorance reduced to a system.
I think that's absurd to believe the Deseret Alphabet is about controlling information because the missionary program still had to work somehow. If you send out missionaries you will bring in people who can't read the Deseret Alphabet and who can bring in "dangerous" ideas. Then there were gentiles who wnt to Utah in places such as Park City.
I think the Deseret Alphabet is an interesting part of Mormon history hence my tagline with a scripture in the Deseret Alphabet.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
Dr. Shades wrote:WOW, WOW, WOW!!! I had never made that connection before, but now that you mention it, it makes PERFECT sense! Here I'd thought the Deseret Alphabet was nothing more than a crackpot experiment, but I can now see that it was a form of Newspeak for truly Orwellian purposes.
Now I feel I have been righteously mocked.
I'M TOTALLY SERIOUS. The light went on in my head when I read your post. I'm rather disappointed that I didn't think of it first!
Now that I've re-read what I wrote, I can see where you got the impression I was mocking you. But as some other posters can hopefully verify, I tend to be rather lavish in my praise when someone writes something particularly insightful or accomplishes something beyond the ordinary.
PLEASE BELIEVE ME, I was not mocking you! I honestly meant what I said. The Orwellian aspect of the Deseret Alphabet had honestly never occurred to me, so when you mentioned it, it hit me like a ton of bricks. KUDOS for catching that angle!
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Bond...James Bond wrote:Wow, Really??? what game? Creators must have had alot of knowledge to know in a scrap of history like deseret.
It's called "Hearts of Iron II: Doomsday." It's the single best and most detailed grand strategic-level WWII computer game in existence. Nothing else even comes close.
The official site is here. You can get a pretty good overview via the trailer here.
Smart Bitch wrote:And look at what UTAH has become....I hav heard that pretty soon you will have to show your Mormon CARD to get in...
you can get out...but to get back in you must show your Mormon CARD...that is okay I am fine with staying out of UTAH
Smart Bitch, where on earth did you get that idea?
MormonMendacity wrote:Second, I think that if he could have really gotten the Deseret Alphabet rolling he could have controlled the Saints even more. By controlling what people could read he would have a very powerful way of controlling thought. I do not believe he had the Deseret Alphabet invented to help immigrants learn English. I believe it was far more powerful as a tool to control.
WOW, WOW, WOW!!! I had never made that connection before, but now that you mention it, it makes PERFECT sense! Here I'd thought the Deseret Alphabet was nothing more than a crackpot experiment, but I can now see that it was a form of Newspeak for truly Orwellian purposes.
I am sorry I was just being a little cranky this morning...I did not mean to be so mean and I was just joking
Please accept my apology..
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
asbestosman wrote:I think that's absurd to believe the Deseret Alphabet is about controlling information because the missionary program still had to work somehow. If you send out missionaries you will bring in people who can't read the Deseret Alphabet and who can bring in "dangerous" ideas. Then there were gentiles who wnt to Utah in places such as Park City.
I think the Deseret Alphabet is an interesting part of Mormon history hence my tagline with a scripture in the Deseret Alphabet.
What's the reasoning on the creation of the Alphabet? My arguments are for secrecy, cultural difference, and control.
The creation of a more unique script so they could say "yeah were Mormons, we got a special writing system".
To be secretive because all new secret clubs need a secret code right?
Secrecy because its a good way to keep the people in the dark on certain subjects. Street signs could be written in english in order to be open to the public, but any new sacred texts could be in the special language (so not everyone could know the wording of doctrine or any future revelations).
Bond
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
And I do not play computer games either...so again I apologize about the Mormon Card thing....I did not mean anything...and I certainly did not mean that UTAH was not changing it is...
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
Dr. Shades wrote:The light went on in my head when I read your post. I'm rather disappointed that I didn't think of it first!
I believe that dubious honor goes to the Tanners (if not someone before them). I found a quote from them by searching for Deseret Alphabet a few years ago.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
asbestosman wrote:I think that's absurd to believe the Deseret Alphabet is about controlling information because the missionary program still had to work somehow. If you send out missionaries you will bring in people who can't read the Deseret Alphabet and who can bring in "dangerous" ideas. Then there were gentiles who wnt to Utah in places such as Park City.
I think the Deseret Alphabet is an interesting part of Mormon history hence my tagline with a scripture in the Deseret Alphabet.
What's the reasoning on the creation of the Alphabet? My arguments are for secrecy, cultural difference, and control.
The creation of a more unique script so they could say "yeah were Mormons, we got a special writing system".
To be secretive because all new secret clubs need a secret code right?
Secrecy because its a good way to keep the people in the dark on certain subjects. Street signs could be written in english in order to be open to the public, but any new sacred texts could be in the special language (so not everyone could know the wording of doctrine or any future revelations).
I think it was another failed attempt by Brigham Young like a few failed colonies and other strange Mormon experiements such as Orderville.
To think the Deseret Alphabet is a secret code may be plausible, but my mother-in-law was able to read it a little bit even without having a key just because some characters look similar and besides it is all in English. You might make the case for code stronger if you tried making ties to the Masonic Pigpen cipher as Brigham Young was a Mason. However, cryptographically speaking both systems of code are weak because they rely on character substitution (which is another reason my mother-in-law could easily read it). As I recall, I think one of the Mary's of England was somehow involved in using or deciphering a weak substitution cipher used by Catholics which was easily cracked. So even if such things were the plan it would not have given power for very long. Furthermore I find no evidence of the Deseret Alphabet being seriously used for more than a year or two. If it was so not everyone could know the wording of doctrine or future revelations, then why teach the system to emigrants or children at all? Are you suggesting that new revelations be written with Latin characters that other English/American converts could easily read?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
asbestosman wrote:I think that's absurd to believe the Deseret Alphabet is about controlling information because the missionary program still had to work somehow. If you send out missionaries you will bring in people who can't read the Deseret Alphabet and who can bring in "dangerous" ideas. Then there were gentiles who wnt to Utah in places such as Park City.
I think the Deseret Alphabet is an interesting part of Mormon history hence my tagline with a scripture in the Deseret Alphabet.
What's the reasoning on the creation of the Alphabet? My arguments are for secrecy, cultural difference, and control.
The creation of a more unique script so they could say "yeah were Mormons, we got a special writing system".
To be secretive because all new secret clubs need a secret code right?
Secrecy because its a good way to keep the people in the dark on certain subjects. Street signs could be written in english in order to be open to the public, but any new sacred texts could be in the special language (so not everyone could know the wording of doctrine or any future revelations).
I think it was another failed attempt by Brigham Young like a few failed colonies and other strange Mormon experiements such as Orderville.
To think the Deseret Alphabet is a secret code may be plausible, but my mother-in-law was able to read it a little bit even without having a key just because some characters look similar and besides it is all in English. You might make the case for code stronger if you tried making ties to the Masonic Pigpen cipher as Brigham Young was a Mason. However, cryptographically speaking both systems of code are weak because they rely on character substitution (which is another reason my mother-in-law could easily read it). As I recall, I think one of the Mary's of England was somehow involved in using or deciphering a weak substitution cipher used by Catholics which was easily cracked. So even if such things were the plan it would not have given power for very long. Furthermore I find no evidence of the Deseret Alphabet being seriously used for more than a year or two. If it was so not everyone could know the wording of doctrine or future revelations, then why teach the system to emigrants or children at all? Are you suggesting that new revelations be written with Latin characters that other English/American converts could easily read?
I would also not discount the fact that not everyone could read in the mid-1800s. It may have been in English, but to an illiterate person English probably looks as vague as any other language in the Latin alphabet.
I'm not trying to create specifics on the code, beyond the idea that throughout mankind certain groups that may be in danger (Utah Wars and being on land taken during Mexican War could have been a danger, who knows an attack on Mormons as part of the drive to the Pacific may have happened) have wanted to be a little secretive.
The system is weak though. Probably why they disregarded it.
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07