Full Disclosure?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

truth dancer wrote:Ooooohhhh James I think you are on to something!

I would have to add one more idea: Take care of each other and the earth. Something along those lines.

I'm thinking if we don't start realizing we are a part of the earth we won't have a earth on which to exist. :-(

But yeah, I'll join your movement ... I particularly like the idea that you don't require any funds. THAT IS COOL!!! :-)

~dancer~


I needed a third rule anyway. Thanks.

I like the "Ooohhhh James" by the way.

Bond
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Would any religion be able to attract converts if they gave full disclosure to investigators?

Bond


Loran:

I'm not certain. Now, another question: how many anti-Mormon ministries, organizatins, and individuals would be able to attract converts if they gave full disclosure of their agendas and motivations?

Loran
_Polygamy Porter
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:04 am

Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Coggins7 wrote:
Would any religion be able to attract converts if they gave full disclosure to investigators?

Bond


Loran:

I'm not certain. Now, another question: how many anti-Mormon ministries, organizatins, and individuals would be able to attract converts if they gave full disclosure of their agendas and motivations?

Loran
Ahhh the cheerleader for the Mormon hypocrites has picked up the pom-poms.

Mormon missionaries, and members pushing the cult upon unwitting friends, family, neighbors and coworkers are never expected to give a full disclosure of their hidden agenda(CONVERT THEM), and motivations(CONVERT THEM)

Mormons are anti-every-other-religion.
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Loran,

I'm not certain. Now, another question: how many anti-Mormon ministries, organizatins, and individuals would be able to attract converts if they gave full disclosure of their agendas and motivations?


The point is, few religions (if any) claiming to be God's one and only true church have a decent background. as far as I know, they all share similar difficulties.

Folks who admit to being human, who don't assert they are receiving direct communication from God, don't need to pretend they have no issues.

I'm much more comfortable with people doing their best, making mistakes, struggling like all the rest of us than I am with those who make mistakes but justify them as the will of God.

~dancer~
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

The point is, few religions (if any) claiming to be God's one and only true church have a decent background. as far as I know, they all share similar difficulties.

Folks who admit to being human, who don't assert they are receiving direct communication from God, don't need to pretend they have no issues.

I'm much more comfortable with people doing their best, making mistakes, struggling like all the rest of us than I am with those who make mistakes but justify them as the will of God.


Loran:

Nobody I know of in the church has who claims to receive direct communication from God claims to not have personal issues. None pretend they do not. No LDS leader has ever glorified his or her mistakes as the will of God. Examples please?
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

truth dancer wrote:Hi Jason,

I don't know if there are religions who do not claim to be the one and only true one. Probably the Universalists Unitarians and the Quakers come closest. Then there is Buddhism and Vedanta which are not really religions but teachings along the same lines...

I actually wrote about the idea of a new religion in my blog today... http://goodnessgraciousness.blogspot.com

I would love to be a part of a movement, religious or otherwise that lets go of the dogma and nonsense and focuses on healing the world, bringing peace to our planet, taking care of each other, and moving the world toward something better.

It seems to me this often gets lost ... ya know?

~dancer~


My doctor is Hindu and from what little I understand they believe all religions carry and lead can lead to Nirvana-I think that is what they call it. I know almost nothing about eastern religions.
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Jason,

Yes, Vedanta is the teaching of enlightenment found in the Vedas, embraced by the Hindu religion. It in itself is not a religion, more like a philosophy, similar to Buddhism.

:-)

~dancer~
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Loran,

Nobody I know of in the church has who claims to receive direct communication from God claims to not have personal issues. None pretend they do not. No LDS leader has ever glorified his or her mistakes as the will of God. Examples please?


I don't know anyone in the church, or any church who claims to not have personal issues.

I'm not talking about individuals, I'm speaking of religions. When a church claims to be in direct contact with Jesus, Allah, God, Jehova, whatever, if there "less that holy behaviors and actions" is it the will of God or is God screwing up?

The bar is pretty high once a church claims to be the one and only true church directed by God "Himself."

In terms of suggesting mistakes are the will of God... lets see, how about the ban for starters? Today, few members, (if any) will suggest the church made a mistake when they banned men with African ancestry who still have dark skin. Rather they will say it was the will of God, God just changed his mind a few decades ago. And Today, the idea of women not having equality in the church while continuing the ban, is considered God's will... no mistakes there. And lest we not forget polygamy, God's will that a man should have sex with women other than his wife. I have yet to hear a church leader suggest it was a "man" thing rather than God's will. How about Joshua slaughtering whole communities? God's will or a mistake of men? The restriction on birth control... God's will or a prophet getting it wrong? Adam/God? I could go on but do you see the point?

I do not think I have ever heard the church make an apology or admit it did something wrong... everything that we may look upon as unholy, uninspired, cruel, horrific is brushed away as, "God's ways are not man's ways." In other words, blame God!

~dancer~
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

In terms of suggesting mistakes are the will of God... lets see, how about the ban for starters? Today, few members, (if any) will suggest the church made a mistake when they banned men with African ancestry who still have dark skin. Rather they will say it was the will of God, God just changed his mind a few decades ago. And Today, the idea of women not having equality in the church while continuing the ban, is considered God's will... no mistakes there. And lest we not forget polygamy, God's will that a man should have sex with women other than his wife. I have yet to hear a church leader suggest it was a "man" thing rather than God's will. How about Joshua slaughtering whole communities? God's will or a mistake of men? The restriction on birth control... God's will or a prophet getting it wrong? Adam/God? I could go on but do you see the point?

I do not think I have ever heard the church make an apology or admit it did something wrong... everything that we may look upon as unholy, uninspired, cruel, horrific is brushed away as, "God's ways are not man's ways." In other words, blame God!


Loran:

1. How about Jesus' own self imposed ban regarding teaching his Gospel to anyone other than the House of Israel?

2. What about the, by LDS theological standards, the some 1,600 year Priesthood (indeed, gospel)ban upon virtually all of Caucasion Europe?

3. A Melchezedek Priesthood ban on the Jews for much of their ancient history?

4. A Priesthood ban (because of a general gospel ban) on ancient Japan, China, Indonesia, Thailand, Tibet, and whoever, whenever.

Perhaps it wasn't' a mistake to deny black Africans the Priesthood. I don't know the will of God on the matter, or the origin of the ban. What we do understand from the PofGP is that the ban had to do with lineage, to the extent it had to do with anyting. Skin color or race is never mentioned In the PofGP. Our assumption that it did have to do with race, and the assumption of some GAs that it did, is a cultural artifact, not gospel doctrine. Our culture's obsessin with race imposes harsh delimitations on our perceptions TD (as do most obsessions), and restrict our abiltiy to see things clearly.

As to woman, they have full equality in the church. What do you mean? They don't govern the church in a formal capacity. Oh well, yes, that's correct. Think carefully TD; if the church were to bow to cultural and political pressures to alter its core doctrines, then your suspicions that the church is not the divine organization it claims to be would be validated. That which you would like to see the church change in the area of social issues would be the very things that would ultimately undue its claims to divine sanctrion. You can't lose that one TD, only the church can. I prefer a church that swims against the stream and does so with chutzpa.

Birth control. Yes, the church is against the artificial curtailing and limiting children. The key here TD, is that that is between the individuals involved and the Lord. The church doesn't tell people how many children to have. As I interpret that teaching, birth control is perfectly OK beyond the point a couple decide the children they have is enough. Spencer Kimball made clear that in matters of procreation, the mother's health, both psycholgical and physical, was of prime importance.

The gospel is a system TD, and as a system, if you break it up into small, isolated parts, those parts may appear contradictory of incongruous with others.

Loran.
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Loran,

Your post speaks directly to my assertion.

No matter what happens, regardless of how cruel it is, it is NEVER considered a mistake. It is ALWAYS justified somehow... God's ways are not man's ways, etc. As I said, I have yet to hear the church admit to a mistake. EVERYTHING can be rationalized regardless of how completely horrible it is. Blame God and you are good to go.

I'd personally would feel much better about it all if various churches just admitted to mistakes, learned from them, released them, and moved on. But with the claim that God is at the helm, there seems to be no possibility of such a thing.

:-)

~dancer~
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