The problem with Mormons

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_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Loran wrote:

No, the point is that neither you nor any other anti-Mormon has ever shown anyone any 'true" sources, if by that you mean sources that document or make claims that are either plausible on their face, verifiable with respect to other reliable historical sources, or which are not called into question by other documentary evidence. None of the historical claims ever brought against the Church by anyone has ever met those baisc scholarly requirements. Much of Church history isn't clear, and is only open to conjecture (such as Joseh's alleged adultry and sex with other men's wives etc.) Of course, anti's are going to put the worst spin on such material imaginable, and TBM's are going to call for caution and benefit of the doubt (which is the appropriate attitude regardless of the historical issues in question, when little other evidence or documentation is available). But when enough evidence is availabe, the anti position always topples headlong to the pavement after tripping over its own unlaced shoes. This has been happening for a century and a half and continues unabated.


That's pretty strong language: "...neither you nor any other...has ever shown anyone any "true" sources...." I highly doubt that such is truely the case.

When I was growing up I heard all the "anti rumours" about Joseph and his money-digging, treasure seeking escapades, polyandry, etc. Of course, I was told: "He didn't do anything of the sort. Those are anti-lies told to deceive you. Don't believe them."

Then, Arrington and his associates helped to let the cat out of the bag. And the church has been scrambling ever since.

Now we have Bushman admitting to most of this stuff (what used to be merely "anti-Mormon lies") and telling us that it all makes complete sense. It was Joseph's apprenticeship period, his necessary training in order to become a prophet.

What Prophets ever needed training in finding treasures by looking through rocks in order to later receive prophetic revelation from God? I mean, before this one, that is?

The bias is on the Mormon side.

No one in their right mind would look at the same evidence as Bushman himself lays out in his book and come up with that conclusion. Maybe that is why he is so disappointed (I have heard) that his book is not selling outside of Mormon circles. What a laugher. Scholarship my ass.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_OUT OF MY MISERY
_Emeritus
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

Man I almost have me degree...and you all understand this Loran/coogy person...so much beter ..

Well actually I just ignore his posts
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

I have come to realize over the years, from starting out as a TBM intent on defending something that ultimately had little use for me as I am, to now, that people identify very intimately with religion. Well, most people. You see, I know that I'm not every Christian out there. And I'm well aware of the dumbasses out there who do crazy things in Jesus' name. Which is why I hesitate whenever people ask me if I'm gonna be a pastor (religious studies major). I don't know the answer to that question right now. If that's what God wants, he'll let me know.

Mormons have been trained since birth to believe that they have the ultimate truth. To even entertain the thought that the "one true" that has shaped your life for so long is scary. Especially if the church and its structure have given you no complaints. Now, with that said, if you're happy being LDS (which I've met many who are), stay LDS. But for those who are not happy, they have a very scary choice to make. Stay stagnant with the status quo which does not work for them, or go out into the scary unknown and move on.

For a convert, the choice is all that much easier, unless you develop an emotional attachment to the church. And it was especially easy for me towards the end, as I was raised in a Judeo-Christian home. Differences in faith never bothered me. Some people seriously have the need to be right, but I stick by my stance. The brick building you walk into each sunday ain't gonna matter to God. The tabernacle you have built within your own spirit matters. How much do you sacrifice for others? What are you like the other six days out of the week? My boyfriend does not go to church, but can tell you what the scripture says, and HE LIVES IT. He is the most generous person I've ever met, and a man has never made me biased. I know plenty of people who won't set foot in church, just because of the hypocrites that are in so many of them. That's why I stick with mine. The pastor calls us out on our humanity each and every sunday. So you are fed on what matters, not just on "what's in"

As far as the fundamentalist mindset in general, including the TBM refusal to see the non-whitewashed truth of their faith, I give you a quote from Anne Rice (who the TBMs will surely say is a heathen):

"Very few beings really seek knowledge in this world. Mortal or immortal, very few really ask. On the contrary, they try to wring from the unknown the answers they have alread shaped in their own minds-justifications, confirmations, forms of consolation without which they can't go on. To really ask to open the door to the whirlwind. The answer may annihilate the question and the questionner."

-The Vampire Lestat by Anne Rice



So many people out there are so afraid of the unknown, that they would rather bludgeon you with their fear and shield of beliefs than face the uncertain. They aren't worried about who they hurt, they don't care about whose charactger they defame, only that when [b]they[\b] go to sleep in their spiritual worlds, there are no boogeymen under the bed in the form of unanswered questions. So they appease him by feeding you to him as a sacrifice. I refuse to live this way.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

As far as the fundamentalist mindset in general, including the TBM refusal to see the non-whitewashed truth of their faith, I give you a quote from Anne Rice (who the TBMs will surely say is a heathen):



Sorry for de-railing...just had to comment on GIMR's quote. I LOVE Anne Rice! She's awesome! :)

I also love Vegas' reference to the Matrix with the "red pill" analogy. ;)

I suppose my stance is that I don't really see that Mormonism is any worse than other religions. Most of them have inconsistencies; they all beg for money for more funding.

I think it's up to the individual to discover his/her own truth regarding the validity of a higher power.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

liz3564 wrote:
I suppose my stance is that I don't really see that Mormonism is any worse than other religions. Most of them have inconsistencies; they all beg for money for more funding.


The next question is: Since all the religions have inconsistencies, why do we need a religion?

Bond
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Bond...James Bond wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
I suppose my stance is that I don't really see that Mormonism is any worse than other religions. Most of them have inconsistencies; they all beg for money for more funding.


The next question is: Since all the religions have inconsistencies, why do we need a religion?

Bond


How else will the powerless gain and explot the masses?

Religion is a mechanism to gain false political capital.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

liz3564 wrote:
As far as the fundamentalist mindset in general, including the TBM refusal to see the non-whitewashed truth of their faith, I give you a quote from Anne Rice (who the TBMs will surely say is a heathen):



Sorry for de-railing...just had to comment on GIMR's quote. I LOVE Anne Rice! She's awesome! :)

I also love Vegas' reference to the Matrix with the "red pill" analogy. ;)

I suppose my stance is that I don't really see that Mormonism is any worse than other religions. Most of them have inconsistencies; they all beg for money for more funding.

I think it's up to the individual to discover his/her own truth regarding the validity of a higher power.


Hey Liz! I love me some Anne Rice. Have you read Christ the Lord out of Egypt? You should, it's good reading.

I agree with your stance, and I think the fact that you have such a stance is admirable. When people try to make their religion out to be better or more pure than others, when religion at its source is man-made, you're asking for trouble. :-)
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Hey GIMR!

I answered your further question about Anne Rice in a PM so we wouldn't derail the thread completely! LOL

In answer to Bond's question of why religion is important at all...I think the importance of religion stems on a lot of levels...most of them being tradition.

I think that we all long for an explanation for death, and the possibility of life after death. Religion offers us that solace. The organization accompanying religion offers a sense of community and companionship.

In ANY type of large organization, unfortunately, you are going to deal with gossip, people on power trips, etc. You have to be willing to accept the bad with the good.
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

liz3564 wrote:
In answer to Bond's question of why religion is important at all...I think the importance of religion stems on a lot of levels...most of them being tradition.

I think that we all long for an explanation for death, and the possibility of life after death. Religion offers us that solace. The organization accompanying religion offers a sense of community and companionship.

In ANY type of large organization, unfortunately, you are going to deal with gossip, people on power trips, etc. You have to be willing to accept the bad with the good.


Hey Liz

Religion offers theories on what happens when we die. No one knows as far as I know. Since no one's come back from beyond the grave and given a description I don't think we have a blueprint on what happens when we die.

People can find community and companionship in any type of social situation. I guess I could find social solace in sitting in a restaurant all day talking to that group of old guys (does every coffee shop have that group of guys that meets in the morning or what? ;) People especially identify with their religious body because people often grow up in a church, creating lifelong friends. The thing is, shouldn't religion be about personal spiritual fulfillment, not social, because at the end of the day, isn't it between you and God?

I think the bad outweighs the good of religion. But its all about whatever the person wants. Some people have great experiences, some don't. It all depends on a person-to-person basis. Freedom of religion means you.

Bond
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

Bond...James Bond wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
I suppose my stance is that I don't really see that Mormonism is any worse than other religions. Most of them have inconsistencies; they all beg for money for more funding.


The next question is: Since all the religions have inconsistencies, why do we need a religion?

Bond



No we really do not religion....but then again you should know that is what I woul say....I see no point in religion

I see no point in many things.....but I guess there has got to be some point for religion....I have yet to figure it out...
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
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