The Specter of the Sao Paulo Temple

[_Mercury]

Sacrifice for the Lord is a basic and fundamental principle of the gospel. It shows the Lord that you are willing to separate yourself from the vain things of the world and focus on spiritual things.

Since when is a dental filling--of all things--considered a "vain thing of the world?"

As a certain bigot apologist would say: "the jews, who have little to no friends, gave up their fillings so the nazis could build up the Aryan race. Is it too much to ask those dirty wetbacks to do the same for the great space god Elohim?"

[_Mercury]

How utterly ghoulish. Just when I thought the heirarchy couldn't sink any lower, well, they find a new way to surprise me.

From the article:

President Faust . . . said that he had purchased some of the gold fillings for more than the market price to impress upon the minds of congregations the nature of the sacrifice made by these members (Church News, 9 May 1998).

??? Maybe I'm missing something, but rather than buy their fillings, why didn't Faust just skip the middleman and donate that money straight to the temple himself?

Can someone help me out here?

No, I'm still trying to make sense out of it myself. Maybe Gazelem, who understands sacrifice so beautifully, can help out here?

Sacrifice: A tool used by individuals to control weaker individuals so as to defraud them out of material goods and/or services.

[_Gazelam]

No one asked them to give up their dental fillings. What was asked was a donation and sacrifice to help in assisting in the building of the Temple. This is no different than giving up food during a fast to show God you want to draw closer to the Spirit. If the people felt that this was the only way they could help, then so be it. I'm sure they didn't go around with a gaping hole in their jaw afterwards. Why don't you find an address to one of them and ask how they feel about it?

Gaz

[_Mister Scratch]

After Adam was cast from the garden, he eventually returned to the edge of Eden and prayed for a re-unification with the presence of the Lord.

Moses 5:4-5
4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.

Without fully understanding why, Adam was obedient and did as the Lord commanded.

Moses 5:6-8
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
8 Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

Sacrifice for the Lord is a basic and fundamental principle of the gospel. It shows the Lord that you are willing to separate yourself from the vain things of the world and focus on spiritual things.

Perhaps if you spent less time focusing on the flaws of other people, and more time learning doctrine, you would have a better understanding of this most basic of principles.

Gaz

That's not where my criticism is aimed, Gaz. I have no problem with the notion of sacrifice, and I agree with you that it is a basic principle of the Gospel. Rather, I am critical of Pres. Faust's apparent approval of this somewhat macabre form of sacrifice. The general impression I have is that these people were taken advantage of, in the name of "sacrifice," and that the FP put its stamp of approval on it. SleepingWillow, in his/her OP, said that the whole affair raised the possibility of the "sacrifice" of donated kidneys to sell on the black market in order to raise money. Yes: I can agree that sacrifice is normally a good thing, but where should one draw the line? Do you think Pres. Faust would have been a-okay with a female member "sacrificing" her virtue and selling her body in order to help fund the temple? We have to draw lines on this, in my opinion.

Second, my criticism is aimed at Prof. Peterson's obviously absurd, spin-doctored treatment of the issue. If he didn't want to be critical of Faust, he just should have stayed silent, in my opinion.

[_Pokatator]

No one asked them to give up their dental fillings. What was asked was a donation and sacrifice to help in assisting in the building of the Temple. This is no different than giving up food during a fast to show God you want to draw closer to the Spirit. If the people felt that this was the only way they could help, then so be it. I'm sure they didn't go around with a gaping hole in their jaw afterwards. Why don't you find an address to one of them and ask how they feel about it?

Gaz

Sure Gaz

They might as well give up food, too, when you don't have anything to chew it with.

Faust is totally out of touch, the emperor has no clothes but he does have his own teeth.

[_harmony]

What I want to know is: why did they have to sacrifice anything at all? We've got plenty of tithing money to build temples. It makes no sense for the church to demand sacrifice from the poor, when the church is so rich.

@#$%^$^*$%^*%* OPEN THE BOOKS!

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

No one asked them to give up their dental fillings. What was asked was a donation and sacrifice to help in assisting in the building of the Temple. This is no different than giving up food during a fast to show God you want to draw closer to the Spirit. If the people felt that this was the only way they could help, then so be it. I'm sure they didn't go around with a gaping hole in their jaw afterwards. Why don't you find an address to one of them and ask how they feel about it?

Gaz

Maybe you are right, but it sounds more like defensive guessing than actual information. You think they had their fillings replaced? If they'd had the cash to replace fillings, they could have donated the cash, wouldn't you think, or maybe you think it a nobler sacrifice to have fillings extracted and refilled? Do you think the church replaced the fillings? If that's the case, then where is the sacrifice? But as long as we're speculating, it might be interesting to find those people and ask how they feel about it. I'd guess most of them were folks in a conversion fervor, barely dried off from baptism, and they have long since left the church and at this point have fonder memories of their gold fillings than of the church.

[_Mister Scratch]

No one asked them to give up their dental fillings. What was asked was a donation and sacrifice to help in assisting in the building of the Temple. This is no different than giving up food during a fast to show God you want to draw closer to the Spirit. If the people felt that this was the only way they could help, then so be it. I'm sure they didn't go around with a gaping hole in their jaw afterwards. Why don't you find an address to one of them and ask how they feel about it?

Gaz

Maybe you are right, but it sounds more like defensive guessing than actual information. You think they had their fillings replaced? If they'd had the cash to replace fillings, they could have donated the cash, wouldn't you think, or maybe you think it a nobler sacrifice to have fillings extracted and refilled? Do you think the church replaced the fillings? If that's the case, then where is the sacrifice? But as long as we're speculating, it might be interesting to find those people and ask how they feel about it. I'd guess most of them were folks in a conversion fervor, barely dried off from baptism, and they have long since left the church and at this point have fonder memories of their gold fillings than of the church.

There has been further development in the thread. A poster appeared, claiming to be a practicing dentist, and, given the information he provided, his claim appears to be true. Anyhow, he suggested yet another possible scenario: the members donating the fillings were merely handing over teeth which had already fallen out. He went on to say how cumbersome---not to mention painful---the removal of fillings would otherwise be.

So, what this means is that Pres. Faust's remarks are even more embarrassing. Either he was trying to make a mountain out of a molehill (perhaps inadvertently), by praising what was really not that big of a sacrifice, or else he was "approving" of what he thought was a major-league, radical, enamel-cracking sort of sacrifice. Neither option seems altogether flattering towards the Church and its idea of sacrifice, in my opinion.

[_Roger Morrison]

From opening post:

He emphasized the need for saints to sacrifice for temple building. He told how members in Argentina found ways to donate during the construction of the São Paulo Temple. They gave the gold from the dental work in their mouths to help pay on the temple. He said that he had purchased some of the gold fillings for more than the market price to impress upon the minds of congregations the nature of the sacrifice made by these members (Church News, 9 May 1998).

UNBELIEVABLE! That such extremism would be glorified and/or encouraged is without ethics and is cult-like immorality! To find it news worthy is one thing. Did it appear in the SLT? To feature it in any sense as exemplary is incredulous!

So Faust paid more than 'market value' for "gold fillings" how much more? 10%, 500%??

Admittedly i would feel very different if someone sold their Rolls or Rollex as a sacrifice. But to take teeth fillings from folks living in one of the worlds lowest economic regions is shameful. The wealthiest church in the world should be caring for its poor members' oral hygene not degenerating it.

To be assessing and analyzing the event in technical and mechanical terms is to reduce human sympathy and empathy to the realm of social pathological efficiency, reminiscent of gas chambers. Efficiency, effectiveness and sterility little relate to morality. Understanding sacrifice being FROM the 'have-nots' TO the 'haves' has to be a first in social rearrangement!!

Although Musellini did have Italians turning over their gold trinkets and jewelry to finance his war efforts. Other demagogs took gold teeth from corpses. Things that the rest of the world looked on with abhorance... Wealth corrupts, Jesus warned. Roger

[_Mister Scratch]

I am delighted to see that Prof. Peterson has posted the following reply to this thread over on the fittingly named MADboard:

I just noticed that, over on another message board that is, to a large degree, devoted to huffing and puffing about this one, the appallingly awful non-issue with which Southwest launched the thread here is not "The Scandal of the Porto Alegre Temple" but "The Spectre of the Sao Paulo Temple."

While I like both titles, I'm wondering whether we shouldn't call it, instead, "The Calamity of the Campinas Temple," or, even, "The Terror of the Tokyo Temple." Is anybody up for "The Horror of the Hawaiian Temple"? Or, perhaps, "The Plague of the Portland Temple"? "The Catastrophe of the Quetzaltenango Temple" will have a nice ring, too . . .

Ha ha ha! Hilarious, Prof. P.!

Honestly, is this the best he can do? Can't he offer up better apologetics than this silly, "let's make light of the whole issue" garbage? What a disappointment.