Religion is Obsolete

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Keene

well it is about time...I am so sick of religion that I will not miss it....Actually have not missed it for a long long time..


But what will the people do with their time and MONEY now that religion is gone....,

Well the churches could become.....public meeting places for everyone..maybe places we could all come together in....

No more guilt to carry on one's shoulders....

No excuses...no more not feeling like your not good enough...but just a little but better then every one else

No more opium for the masses..people wil actually be drug free for the first time in thier lives....wow....
I can not imagine a drug free world.....

More free thinkers...no more drug addicts
What a concept

[_Mephitus]

Ill repost what i put on an atheist thread on MAD

If you want one of the better vocal athiests, Douglas Adams is my idol. (writer of Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy)

Here is one of his interviews on the subject of god
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUfDWwWKXqQ
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyerwOIwfRc...;watch_response
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOxRSYd4G0o...;watch_response

Gaz, you may want to watch these.(i know you wont get anything from them since you hate listening to a good argument against what youve brainwashed yourself to think, but hey, i can try can't i?)

[_keene]

Keene

well it is about time...I am so sick of religion that I will not miss it....Actually have not missed it for a long long time..

I still think religion has a place, believe it or not. I think as part of our initial education, laws and control should be taught. But then, at a certain point in our progression, I think those laws need to be questioned and built on. I see religion more as a few Lego Blocks to the completed castle.

I haven't really thought this through as much as I should have (I'll definitely be thinking it through long before I have children of my own..) but I think religion and control can be taught up to about age 6 or 7. It's during these formative years that the initial personality is gained -- and around these years it's important to teach a child how to live peacefully in society. Religion was the foundation of large societies, and it's worked up till now.

I would say after 7 years old, each law should be brought under scrutiny, and the child should be taught to use a new level of consciousness. Rather than punish the child for breaking the rules at this point, the child should be asked about the rule at hand, why it was there, how it can help them, and whether they could do better at it. Creating a plan of action, rather than a response and negative REaction. By the teenage years, a habit for self-improvement will have set in.

Again, I haven't really thought this through very much. I'll be doing much more study into child psychology and control structures. It's a fledgling theory.

But what will the people do with their time and MONEY now that religion is gone....,

Well the churches could become.....public meeting places for everyone..maybe places we could all come together in....

This is actually a major concern -- most religionists would have you believe that without religion, our money would go into deprecating acts -- like the vomitoriums and orgies of Rome. I have a vastly different belief. I think that were people not worried about religion, they would instead be worried about improvement. How to build a better mousetrap, as it were. Of course, if there isn't a good global sense of ethics, this could be disastrous. Fortunately, I think the Internet is the perfect tool to keep us in check -- all "better mousetraps" would have instant and immediate judgment by their peers. Without good ethics, the majority of people will make the power hungry fall into line, or fall behind.

No more guilt to carry on one's shoulders....

No excuses...no more not feeling like your not good enough...but just a little but better then every one else

This is a recurring theme in the anti-mormon sentiments on this forum... and although it's one I agree with, I feel I must make one caveat. I would change the statement to say "No more useless guilt to carry on one's shoulders...." There are many times where guilt is the result of a wrong action, with no attempt to fix it. USELESS guilt would be if you think you've done a wrong action, even if you haven't. But some things do require "repentance." For example, if you were General Motors, and you made a car that had a defect where the front left tire falls off after a few thousand miles, then you would have a responsibility to fix it. If you took no action, I would say guilt would be a good emotion to carry around.

On a more personal level; I often feel guilty, but not because of things I've done. I don't feel guilty for masturbating, watching porn, eating, sleeping, etc. When I feel guilty, it's because I know I could be doing better: I could sleep less, I could exersize more, I could focus more on my studies. The big difference between my own guilt, and the religious guilt, is that mine is self imposed -- and I use it as a motivator for change. I also refuse to feel guilty about anything in my past -- only about what I am currently doing in my present.

That's the biggest problem I currently have with the repentance process as described on Mormon.org: You must feel guilty. Why? If you change immediately, then there's no reason to feel guilt!

No more opium for the masses..people wil actually be drug free for the first time in thier lives....wow....
I can not imagine a drug free world.....

More free thinkers...no more drug addicts
What a concept

Now this, I don't agree with. Everyone has their drug. It's a simple fact. Everyone has their own addiction, and their own way to get it. I like the way they described it in "What the Bleep do we know?" (a great movie that I think everyone should watch: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... what+bleep)

If religion isn't the opiate of the masses, something else will be. My hope would be that it's self-improvement and questioning. I would like the universities to become the new religion. I would like the workplace to be a fun environment where learning and progression abound -- so people can get their rush from that. Unfortunately, I see a few great obstacles besides religion standing in the way. Politics and prime-time TV being the two most prevalent.

[_keene]

Ill repost what i put on an atheist thread on MAD

If you want one of the better vocal athiests, Douglas Adams is my idol. (writer of Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy)

Here is one of his interviews on the subject of god
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUfDWwWKXqQ
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyerwOIwfRc...;watch_response
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOxRSYd4G0o...;watch_response

Gaz, you may want to watch these.(i know you wont get anything from them since you hate listening to a good argument against what youve brainwashed yourself to think, but hey, i can try can't i?)

Lately, I've been watching a lot of Richard Dawkins. His style of interviewing is quite hilarious, if you can catch his subtleties.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=dawkins

Also, something I recently found, and am rather fond of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignostic

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Keene

i have children and the best thing I never did was allow religion to guide them...Keene I can already tell by your posts that you are so far ahead...your children will be guided by you and your spouse...and you will guide them fine...trust me...I can tell

Allow your children to be guilt free as they grow and mature..remember you are guiding them YOU...do not allow anyone or anything to guide your children other than YOU...guide with your heart...because your heart will be your best guide....

I also agree with useless guilt that is a much better way to put it...I feel guilty all the time knowing I could have done better...Self imposed guilt is much better and easier to deal with then someone else's guilt you do not deserve..

I love alcohol and sleep and watching R-rated movies and being a bitch... and saying F***


Yes you are right everyone has THEIR drug ..I have many of my own I will never give up like caffeine and booze......
I could not agree with you more about the universities becoming the new religion

I love politics because the one thing being college has taught me is that everything is political ...and the faster you learn to work the SYSTEM...that we the people have put into place...the more you will like politics....

Ask me a general question on how to get something done....and I will tell you the right buttons to push and the right people to push em with.......everything is political......everything...

[_Sam Harris]

So, where is your own thought or action in this? It seems like a conscious decision to deny consciousness. If your only thought is to deny your thoughts and trust the thoughts of others (holy ghost, Christ, laws, etc.) then there seems to be very little growth potential.

Which is why you get little more than regurgitated testimonies from Gaz, his "thoughts" are simply what was placed into his head by church leaders. He gave up his right to think just like all rigid fundie Mormons, and has let the church make the decisions for him. Apparently much easier.

[_keene]

So, where is your own thought or action in this? It seems like a conscious decision to deny consciousness. If your only thought is to deny your thoughts and trust the thoughts of others (holy ghost, Christ, laws, etc.) then there seems to be very little growth potential.

Which is why you get little more than regurgitated testimonies from Gaz, his "thoughts" are simply what was placed into his head by church leaders. He gave up his right to think just like all rigid fundie Mormons, and has let the church make the decisions for him. Apparently much easier.

See, that may be true, but I choose not to believe it. At least not yet. I think that would be unfair to Gaz, and to most Mormons anywhere. It would be wrong for me to judge him prematurely like that, just as it would be wrong for him to judge me as because of the actions I claim to do.

Perhaps he's got a good reason. I'd honestly like to know. I don't want to just discount him immediately because of what label he decides to call himself by. I would hope he does the same to me, and sees my questions for what they are, rather than discounting them as anti-mormon, or anti-religion, or anti-him.

Plus, I have a serious doubt that people can live without thinking about these kind of things. At least, not for long. I've done far too much study on Dissonance to believe that people can go on without justifying it in their minds, hearts, and souls.

So I will patiently away Gaz's answers.

[_msnobody]

I was recently trying to explain my beliefs to my betrothed, and I found it rather difficult. I ended up drawing graphs, pulling up various scientific websites, having her read several wikipedia articles on hallucinogens, entheogens, quotes from Timothy Leary, the Mayan Calendar, Zen Buddhism, it goes on and on and on and on. When I got to my testimony of Christ, I made a new connection that I wanted to share.

You just need to print up a flip chart and make it easier on yourself.

The law makes us conscious of sin. It is no secret that none of us can keep it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Keene: I haven't really thought this through as much as I should have (I'll definitely be thinking it through long before I have children of my own..) but I think religion and control can be taught up to about age 6 or 7. It's during these formative years that the initial personality is gained -- and around these years it's important to teach a child how to live peacefully in society.

Jersey Girl: How would you teach a child under age 6/7 to live peacefully in society?

Keene: I would say after 7 years old, each law should be brought under scrutiny, and the child should be taught to use a new level of consciousness. Rather than punish the child for breaking the rules at this point, the child should be asked about the rule at hand, why it was there, how it can help them, and whether they could do better at it. Creating a plan of action, rather than a response and negative REaction. By the teenage years, a habit for self-improvement will have set in.

Jersey Girl: I like what you said about "a habit for self-improvement" here, Keene. I'd like to know why you chose age 7 to help children "scrutinize" laws/rules.

[_Gazelam]

Keene,

Let me put this in terms you can currently relate to, since you are prepareing yourself to be married. The Old testament uses the same word when discussing a man knowing his wife, and a man knowing God: yada. As a man was to leave his Father and Mother and cleave unto his wife and thus become one flesh with her, so he is to leave the things of the world and become one with God. As faithfulness in marriage is essential to the nurturing of love, so faithfulness in keeping gospel covenants is essential to nurturing a relationship with your Father in Heaven. the same applies to sacrifice and devotion. This is why you will find references to apostacy being described as adultery, and Israels covenant with God as a marriage. (Jeremiah 2:20-37; Ezekiel 16; Hosea 1-3)

Keene, if you want to know if there is a God, do the things he asks you to do, and he'll make himself known. It requires Faith on your part.

When the early Church in this dispensation desired to act under divine guidance in their directing of the church, the same rule could be applied on a personal level. D&C 107:30-31

30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity;
31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord.

There it is for you; The requirements for the enjoyment of the company of the Holy Ghost. The requirements for revelation.

The only way to know God is by revelation. People can study for their entirte lives every form of scripture from every religion on earth, sit through every class offered by every university in the fields of religious studies, scriptural commentary, philosophy, and still never come to a knowledge of who God is. God is made known by way of revelation, or he remains a mystery. You will never have any answeres to any of your ponderings in regards to how to raise your yet to be conceived child until you receive a revelation. Until then you will remain uncertain as to what direction both you and it should proceed forward in life.

Lets use a scriptural example of how someone receives a revelation. Acts chapter ten telsl the story of a man named Cornelius. Now Cornelius was a gentile, not even a Jew! Nevertheless he was a devout man, he and all his house feared God, prayed daily, and gave generously to those in need. While God was made to seal the heavens to the chosen race, Cornelius opened the heavens because of his faithfulness, and the Lord honored him by sending Peter, who was told to teach this Gentile by the Lord in a dream.

Righteous work opens the heavens. And not merely action, it must be sincere to be honored. This is represented in the rejection of Israels fast (Isaiah 58:1-11)

2 Nephi 32:4-5
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

let me ask you this. In all honesty, if God were to make himself known to you, what would you do with that knowledge? Are there things in your life now that you think he would not like? If so, then stop them now.

Alma 12:9-11
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

You say you do not look to the past, but concern yourself with now and the future. Good. Put aside your former dealings with the church, and instead concentrate on the here and now and ask yourself, what is the purpose of life. Why am I here, Where do we go after we die. Whats all this about.

The witness of the Holy Ghost answers this. Because if the Book of Mormon is true, and Joseph Smith was a true Prophet, then all the rest is true concerning all the Doctrines of the Church. Just ask. Moronis promise is how I know, and it was the reason people asked me to baptise them on my mission. The Holy Ghost chases away all skepticism. It gives you a foundation to operate from in all that you do.

Gaz