Muslims and peace...

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Richardlionhart
_Emeritus
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:33 pm

Re: Muslims and peace...

Post by _Richardlionhart »

truth dancer wrote:My experience is that there are those Muslims who do not interpret the Quran as some suggest they must (Kevin... smile).

The Muslims I know speak out for peace and speak out against terrorism. (With one exception who is in prison).

Here are a few links provided by my Mulsim friend who is very passionate about her religion and peace.


You are dead wrong. When they are given their orders these individuals will kill you because you are an infidel. Either you submit and become one of them or you will die. The Moslim mind is completely incompatable with the Western society. These "Western Moslims" are just sleeper agents waiting to kill infidels. They might not even know it, but when Alah commands them, they will kill whoever does not submit Old Testament their "religion of peace".

They cannot be allowed to continue to live in our country unless they leave their mind washing religion at the door. There cannot be any coexistance because they will not allow it. You are falling into their trap by believing their lies. You should read the following website...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

The website is run by a world renowned scholar. He knows the truth about the Moslim horde. It is not just that they will conquer america, they really want to and are worming themselves into our government as we speak. In 100 years the USA will not exist unless something is done.
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Re: Muslims and peace...

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Richardlionhart wrote:You are dead wrong. When they are given their orders these individuals will kill you because you are an infidel. Either you submit and become one of them or you will die. The Moslim mind is completely incompatable with the Western society. These "Western Moslims" are just sleeper agents waiting to kill infidels. They might not even know it, but when Alah commands them, they will kill whoever does not submit Old Testament their "religion of peace".

They cannot be allowed to continue to live in our country unless they leave their mind washing religion at the door. There cannot be any coexistance because they will not allow it. You are falling into their trap by believing their lies. You should read the following website...


So what are you suggesting Richard? The outright cleansing of America?

The problem with your ideas are that they run contrary to everything America stands for. We may not agree with some segments of a religion, but that doesn't mean the deportment of every Muslim. If a muslim makes an attack, then we deport them or imprison them or whatever. What you're suggesting is akin to Nazi Germany, arresting people based on their beliefs rather than their actions.

And once the Muslims are gone what then? We already got rid of one headache, why not another? What about hardline socialists? What about homosexuals? What about African-Americans? What about Hispanics? When you say "our country" who exactly are you talking about?

This country is a democracy, and it's as much mine as it is yours and everyone else who holds American citizenship. You can't pick and choice your fellow citizens because they have as much right to be here as you do, whether you're family has been here 10 generations or if you're 5 minutes past the citizenship test. Really does anyone have a right to be here except Native Americans?

By the way, do you seriously think that 12 million American muslims could take over the country? The right to bear arms (you know, the amendment right after that "freedom of speech and religion" thingy) is well in place, not to mention the US military.

Bond
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

The problem with your ideas are that they run contrary to everything America stands for.


Which is what?

We may not agree with some segments of a religion, but that doesn't mean the deportment of every Muslim.


Of course I don’t think anyone is suggesting that.

If a muslim makes an attack, then we deport them or imprison them or whatever.


We should be far stricter than that, and we are. Some are deported for supporting terrorists in other ways.

What you're suggesting is akin to Nazi Germany, arresting people based on their beliefs rather than their actions.


That is not what he said at all. I sense a bigot-baiting campaign on the horizon, which is usually the case whenever Hitler is mentioned.

And once the Muslims are gone what then? We already got rid of one headache, why not another? What about hardline socialists? What about homosexuals? What about African-Americans? What about Hispanics? When you say "our country" who exactly are you talking about?


None of these other groups pose a national threat like that of radical Muslims; the “enemy within” so to speak. Their own “moderates” are contemplating the prospects for overthrowing our government, and our free speech allows them to burn our flag and march in the street and bad-mouth America. Are gays trying to overrun the government and impose a theocracy that would force everyone to be Muslim or suffer dhimmitude status? Are Hispanics doing that? Of course not every Muslim is a radical but the fact is, only Muslims become Muslim radicals. We should stiffen our immigration policies on Muslims even more. Non-citizens have no rights to become American citizens. If they come it is because we let them come. We are not obligated to be impartial as to who gets to come, and the immigration system has never worked that way. We should also pay closer attention to them at airports and stop strip searching the grey-haired old lady for the sake of political correctness. Yes, we should profile. Police do it all the flippin time, so why would it be any different for an issue as crucial as national security? Profiling is a successful system that helps aid investigators and those who are on our side trying to stop future 9-11s.

This country is a democracy, and it's as much mine as it is yours and everyone else who holds American citizenship.


Unfortunately that is somewhat true. People actually do come here legally with the intent on destroying American from within, and as long as they keep their actions limited to words, America’s free speech policy forbids any legal repercussions.

You can't pick and choice your fellow citizens because they have as much right to be here as you do, whether you're family has been here 10 generations or if you're 5 minutes past the citizenship test.


What we can do is take pride in American culture and try to salvage it before it disappears. Do you really think the founding fathers would recognize anything in American today? Muslims get away with stuff Christians could only dream of. They have played the pity card perfectly since 9-11 and Americans are so afraid to death about appearing prejudiced, they’ve bent over backwards to accommodate them at every turn. Just look at how those idiot Imams acted on the airplane a few weeks ago - scaring the hell out of people for the sole purpose of making a public spectacle so they can cry about discrimination once they have been removed. That is how good Muslims have it in America. They actually have to stage events to add discrimination cases to their prepared list of gripes.

By the way, do you seriously think that 12 million American muslims could take over the country?


There are only about 2-3 million Muslims in America – the 12 million is a CAIR invention made for political purposes. If you can convince the politicians there are 12 million active Muslims in America, you can get them to lean your way.

And Muslims are taking over Europe as we speak. How? By out-breeding them by a ration or 6 to 1. Britain is already becoming Islamic in many respects, as are other European countries that were not prepared for the immigration flood when they opened the gates. France’s economy has been devastated by the flood, and as we speak Muslims represent 70% of the government welfare and about that same percentage occupies its prisons. And riots are continuing even still as thousands of Muslims rage in the streets setting cars on fire. Should we wait until we have France’s problem or should we dam up the flood before it is too late?

We have been lucky in some sense because many of our Muslim immigrants are from Saudi Arabia, and are already privileged. France receives the poor and destitute from Algeria and N. Africa out of guilt. And now they are paying for it. We should all learn from what is happening in Europe instead of imitating it.

The right to bear arms (you know, the amendment right after that "freedom of speech and religion" thingy) is well in place, not to mention the US military.


But one step at a time is the idea, and they are doing it. They are already making efforts to get rid of free speech by trying to categorize virtually any criticism of Islam as “hate speech.” They have succeeded in this in Italy and Australia for example. Fallaci, the popular Italian journalist who was dying of cancer at the time, was supposed to be tried for hate speech simply because she wrote a book warning about the same things I have said. She left the country and died just a couple of months ago. Another preacher in Australia was tried and sentenced for hate speech when all he did was say a truism about something Muhammed did. If Muslims had their way here, they’d have us all locked up for critically examining Islam which is ironic since they are the ones marching down the street with posters saying “behead those who insult Islam.”

They are also trying to make it illegal to profile Muslims at airports which would aid the terrorists in more ways than one. Who the hell wants to search a Muslim when they know it will be a federal crime to do so? Of course the new Muslim congressman Keith Ellison is all for it, as is Nancy Pelosi! I am only glad I am in Brazil so I don’t have to watch America’s demise up close and personal.
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

The Muslim Student Association (MSA) is the largest Muslim organization in North America. Today, over 150 MSA chapters exist on American college campuses, including BYU. What exactly is this organization's business? Read how patriotic some of our Muslim students are acting. At a meeting in Queensborough Community College in March 2003, a guest speaker named Faheed declared, "We reject the U.N., reject America, reject all law and order. Don't lobby Congress or protest because we don't recognize Congress. The only relationship you should have with America is to topple it … Eventually there will be a Muslim in the White House dictating the laws of shariah." During an October 2000 anti-Israeli protest, former MSA president Ahmed Shama at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) stood before the Israeli consulate in Los Angeles, shouting "Victory to Islam! Death to the Jews!" MSA West president Sohail Shakr declared at the same rally, "the biggest impediment to peace [in the Middle East] has been the existence of the Zionist entity in the middle of the Muslim world." Prior to September 11, 2001, the MSA formally assisted three Islamic charities in fundraising: the Holy Land Foundation, Global Relief, and Benevolence Foundation. Afterwards, all three were accused by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of having serious links to terrorism and were ordered closed. The MSA chapter of the University of Southern California, says on its website that the duty of Muslims is to: "Defend the rights of Muslims abroad, and to see to it that Islam can spread freely in non-Muslim lands (including the use of force). Organize jihad against any non-Muslim government which prevents Muslim da'wah from entering its land." The MSA's presence serves as a feather in a University's cap of diversity, and no formal inquiry into its motives or political agenda is acceptable. They are immune to criticism and given the benefit of the doubt. Here are some more eye-opening remarks:

Zaid Shakir, former Muslim chaplain at Yale said:

Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the secular system in the United States, for it "is against the orders and ordainments of Allah . . . the orientation of the Qur'an pushes us in the exact opposite direction as the forces that are at work in the American political spectrum.


Fawaz Damra, a convicted Imam from Ohio said:

The first principle is that terrorism, and terrorism alone, is the path to liberation...If what they mean by jihad is terrorism, then we are terrorists.


Sami Al Arian, South Florida professor who receives praise and support from academia's most prominent scholars, said:

Let us continue the protests. Let us damn America. Let us damn Israel. Let us damn their allies until death. Mohammad is leader. The Qu’ran is our constitution. Jihad is our path. Victory to Islam. Death to Israel. Revolution! Revolution! Until Victory! Rolling, rolling to Jerusalem.


Ibrahim Hooper of Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:

I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future.


Omar Ahmad of CAIR said:

Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran…should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.


Siraj Wahhaj is a convert to Islam, the recipient of some of the Muslim community's highest honors, and called "one the most respected Muslim leaders in America." He said:

I have a vision in America, Muslims owning property all over, Muslim businesses, factories, halal meat, supermarkets, all these buildings owned by Muslims. Can you see the vision, can you see the Newark International Airport and a John Kennedy Airport and LaGuardia having Muslim fleets of planes, Muslim pilots. Can you see our trucks rolling down the highways, Muslim names.


The first Islamic missionaries from abroad arrived in the 1920s and unblushingly declared: "Our plan is, we are going to conquer America."( Andrew T Hoffert, "The Moslem Movement in America," The Moslem World, 20 (1930), p. 309.)

Ihsan Bagby Professor of Islamic Studies at University of Kentucky, (PhD from University of Michigan) said:

Ultimately we can never be full citizens of this country, because there is no way we can be fully committed to the institutions and ideologies of this country.


Imam Muzammil H. Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America, said: "We must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands."

And of course, this is peanuts when compared to the statements from Muslim authorities abroad. If you're a natural multicultural relativist (MR), I know what you're thinking. Something along the lines of, "Well all religions in America can produce examples of extremists who wish to conquer America and change its laws." That they can is beyond question. That they in fact do, is something that needs to be demonstrated before the MR doctrine is taken for granted. MRs don't want to interact much with the reality that undermines their assumptions. I would like to propose a challenge for anyone who can demonstrate examples of just one or maybe two Mormons, or Baptists, or Catholics, or Jews who believe the constitution should be overthrown by their religion. Since Mormons in America number about the same as Muslims, and the latter three outnumber them, assuming all things are equal, surely this should be an easy task. Further, it isn't just some looney Muslims who make these comments. This is the doctrine that is spewed at Islamic rallies on our own University campuses. My point here is simple. If we cannot fall back on the prominent Muslim organizations to be "moderate" in their voices, where else can we turn?


"When an Arab torches a school, it’s rebellion. When a white guy does it, it’s fascism." - Alain Finkielkraut
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

dartagnan wrote:
The problem with your ideas are that they run contrary to everything America stands for.

Which is what?


America stands for something different to everybody. My views and yours are different, but we are allowed to say what we want, thus freedom of speech. Until a Muslim has made a violent action or shown any evidence of wrongdoing, shouldn't they get the benefit of the doubt?

We may not agree with some segments of a religion, but that doesn't mean the deportment of every Muslim.

Of course I don’t think anyone is suggesting that.


Richard said: "They cannot be allowed to continue to live in our country unless they leave their mind washing religion at the door. There cannot be any coexistance because they will not allow it."

He's saying that all Muslims have to give up their religion if any of them have a problem with America, or they shouldn't be allowed into the country. Obviously he wants a more homogenous population (without Muslims), that can be brought about by deportation or death or deconversion, but its still a violation of freedom of religion if they are forced to leave their religion behind. Of course Richard has the right to say whatever he wants about Muslims and their religion.

If a muslim makes an attack, then we deport them or imprison them or whatever.

We should be far stricter than that, and we are. Some are deported for supporting terrorists in other ways.


Agreed

What you're suggesting is akin to Nazi Germany, arresting people based on their beliefs rather than their actions.

That is not what he said at all. I sense a bigot-baiting campaign on the horizon, which is usually the case whenever Hitler is mentioned.


I misspoke and will retract my mentioning Nazi Germany. Hopefully a holocaust or any type of hate crime won't happen against Muslims. But Richard is still vaguely painting all Muslims as dangerous neighbors because they are Muslims, rather than because of any real actions of violence.

And once the Muslims are gone what then? We already got rid of one headache, why not another? What about hardline socialists? What about homosexuals? What about African-Americans? What about Hispanics? When you say "our country" who exactly are you talking about?


None of these other groups pose a national threat like that of radical Muslims; the “enemy within” so to speak. Their own “moderates” are contemplating the prospects for overthrowing our government, and our free speech allows them to burn our flag and march in the street and bad-mouth America. Are gays trying to overrun the government and impose a theocracy that would force everyone to be Muslim or suffer dhimmitude status? Are Hispanics doing that? Of course not every Muslim is a radical but the fact is, only Muslims become Muslim radicals. We should stiffen our immigration policies on Muslims even more. Non-citizens have no rights to become American citizens. If they come it is because we let them come. We are not obligated to be impartial as to who gets to come, and the immigration system has never worked that way. We should also pay closer attention to them at airports and stop strip searching the grey-haired old lady for the sake of political correctness. Yes, we should profile. Police do it all the flippin time, so why would it be any different for an issue as crucial as national security? Profiling is a successful system that helps aid investigators and those who are on our side trying to stop future 9-11s.


My statement here was highly sensational and wrong. Obviously those groups are much more a long standing part of peaceful America than Muslims and are looked up as less a threat. The point is that once roads are taken by the majority to silence the minority, what stops the majority from taking care of other disruptive minorities. It's a very slippery slope.


You can't pick and choice your fellow citizens because they have as much right to be here as you do, whether you're family has been here 10 generations or if you're 5 minutes past the citizenship test.

What we can do is take pride in American culture and try to salvage it before it disappears. Do you really think the founding fathers would recognize anything in American today? Muslims get away with stuff Christians could only dream of. They have played the pity card perfectly since 9-11 and Americans are so afraid to death about appearing prejudiced, they’ve bent over backwards to accommodate them at every turn. Just look at how those idiot Imams acted on the airplane a few weeks ago - scaring the hell out of people for the sole purpose of making a public spectacle so they can cry about discrimination once they have been removed. That is how good Muslims have it in America. They actually have to stage events to add discrimination cases to their prepared list of gripes.


Of course the Founding Fathers wouldn't recognize most of it. Thomas Jefferson would have a heart attack at how dumb we are despite all of our technological resources and John Adams would have a fit to realize Paris Hilton is a role model for some people. But hopefully they would realize that freedom of speech and choice is a gift. What we do with it is our business.

I thought the Imam on the plane incident was an attempt to gather sympathy. And for the record I don't think Muslims should be given a free reign. But they do have rights, and until they step over the line they get the same benefit as every American. The government can't step over the line and get them until they are overt in their actions towards America.
By the way, do you seriously think that 12 million American muslims could take over the country?


There are only about 2-3 million Muslims in America – the 12 million is a CAIR invention made for political purposes. If you can convince the politicians there are 12 million active Muslims in America, you can get them to lean your way.

And Muslims are taking over Europe as we speak. How? By out-breeding them by a ration or 6 to 1. Britain is already becoming Islamic in many respects, as are other European countries that were not prepared for the immigration flood when they opened the gates. France’s economy has been devastated by the flood, and as we speak Muslims represent 70% of the government welfare and about that same percentage occupies its prisons. And riots are continuing even still as thousands of Muslims rage in the streets setting cars on fire. Should we wait until we have France’s problem or should we dam up the flood before it is too late?

We have been lucky in some sense because many of our Muslim immigrants are from Saudi Arabia, and are already privileged. France receives the poor and destitute from Algeria and N. Africa out of guilt. And now they are paying for it. We should all learn from what is happening in Europe instead of imitating it.


I meant 2 million, I don't know where that extra 1 came from. Can't agree more. Europe is filling with Muslims. What do you suggest we do in America? Close the borders?

The right to bear arms (you know, the amendment right after that "freedom of speech and religion" thingy) is well in place, not to mention the US military.


But one step at a time is the idea, and they are doing it. They are already making efforts to get rid of free speech by trying to categorize virtually any criticism of Islam as “hate speech.” They have succeeded in this in Italy and Australia for example. Fallaci, the popular Italian journalist who was dying of cancer at the time, was supposed to be tried for hate speech simply because she wrote a book warning about the same things I have said. She left the country and died just a couple of months ago. Another preacher in Australia was tried and sentenced for hate speech when all he did was say a truism about something Muhammed did. If Muslims had their way here, they’d have us all locked up for critically examining Islam which is ironic since they are the ones marching down the street with posters saying “behead those who insult Islam.”

They are also trying to make it illegal to profile Muslims at airports which would aid the terrorists in more ways than one. Who the hell wants to search a Muslim when they know it will be a federal crime to do so? Of course the new Muslim congressman Keith Ellison is all for it, as is Nancy Pelosi! I am only glad I am in Brazil so I don’t have to watch America’s demise up close and personal.


Just because Muslims are getting a few protections doesn't mean they're immune. You still have the right to say whatever you want. Get together a few million of your friends of similar views and run for President and change the policy.

You're in Brazil? Are you an American citizen?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

I'm pretty sure Kevin doesn't want Muslims in America deprived of their freedoms, and I think what he's saying is that they should speak out more, and insidious versions of Islam are a cancer to a healthy society. We have taken one step further, and extremist Muslims can be deported or jailed. Extremist Muslim websites are also shut down by ASIO (Australian Security Intelligence Organisation). The fact is that more (non-violent) voices raising concern, whether Muslims or non-Muslims, I think is a good thing. The last thing we need is a too Chamberlain-like "peace in our time" approach, because before we know it Christmas will not be the only thing the sympathisers sacrifice in the name of "multiculture". The policy in my country is come here if you like, but adopt or at least respect the lifestyle we have had for over 200 years, or don't bother coming.
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Kevin..

You are correct that I do not have a ton of research to support my opinion.

My opinion is based on those Muslims I know.

With one exception the Muslims I know are peaceful, loving, caring, wonderful American citizens who are outraged at terrorism and who interpret the Quran differently than extremists.

I am uncomfortable with those who suggest Muslims are evil, cruel, horrible people who want to destroy America, kill us all, and take over the world!

I understand the horrors going on in the world, related to Islam... I also know Muslims trying to make a difference.

I do feel you and Richard are condemning all of Islam based on reading, texts, and terrorists groups rather than how some Muslims experience the world and their religion....similarly to how many critics condemn Mormonism based on texts, outmoded teachings, and unusual doctrine that may not be a part of modern mainstream Mormonism.

I just see a need to separate those peace loving, good, decent, moral Muslims who are doing their best to bring peace to the world and enlighten believers of their religion, and those terrorists who bring sorrow and horror to the world.

These Muslims exist. They may be a minority; they may not be a vocal as some would like; they may not be influential but they are here doing what they can.

So there you have it! :-)

~dancer~
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

truth dancer wrote:These Muslims exist. They may be a minority; they may not be a vocal as some would like; they may not be influential but they are here doing what they can.

So there you have it! :-)

~dancer~


Truth Dancer: You are naïve.

Kevin: You are a poorly-read right winger who speaks the politics of hate.

Aside from the initial conquest by Islam (I could say something about Constantine's army; the Crusades), Islam proved to be a fairly peaceful religion, permitting Christian and Jewish visitors free access to their respective holy places. At one time, Arab scholars were the height of knowledge, preserving many of the classical texts we now enjoy today.

The Christian crusades changed things. Not only did these Crusade kings massacre entire villages of Christian dissidents and Jews, they brutalized the Moslem population and refused Moslem worship.

Today, we have so-called "experts" such as the one Richard points to in his post, Robert Spencer, who tell us what Muslims believe by quoting 1000-year-old texts. Spencer, described by Richard as a world-class scholar, lacks a doctorate in any field and wrote his Master's paper on Christian History.

No doubt Islam has now transformed itself into a brutal religion. But, you should ask why? How would you feel if British troops appeared on your doorstep in the 1940s and forced you from your home in Palestine at the point of a bayonet? Now, living in refugee camps outside of your homeland, for decades no less, you see that the United States provides more foreign aid to Israel that to any other nation on earth? How should you feel?

The problem could be resolved by renouncing monetary support for Israel. After all, how was this any different than the Soviet support of Cuba?

P
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi P...

Truth Dancer: You are naïve.


Why? Because I believe my friends who are Muslim and speak out against terrorism? Because I believe there are those Muslims who want peace? Because when my friends share their beliefs of peace and interpret the Quran differently than some suggest they do, I believe them?

Whatever....

As I mentioned on the other thread... I used to live in a community with a very large Muslim population. I have spent a significant amount of time trying to learn and understand Islam from MUSLIMS. I have spent significant amounts of time in very personal conversations as a therapist with Muslims women. I have attended numerous conferences and lectures by MUSLIMS in an attempt to learn. I have also read literature showing the negative side of Islam... End of Faith for an example. I also have been in court with a Muslim from Pakistan who kidnapped, tortured, and abused a client of mine. I am very familiar with his beliefs and how his religion impacted his behavior. Trust me, I know the dark side in its intricate and most horrific details.

I also have a Muslim friend who speaks out for peace in her online community... no she has not been killed. :-(

No, I am not an expert on Islam... I have never claimed such a thing. But I believe those who have shared their lives and beliefs with me. Until I have some reason to do otherwise I will continue to do so.


~dancer~
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

truth dancer wrote:Whatever....


Excellent rejoinder.

Anecdotal evidence is evidence of nothing. That's all you have; things your friends say to you. I have Muslim employees. I don't look at their conduct and equate them to all Islam. At least Kevin cites authorities. I don't agree with them, however.

P
Post Reply