The Mormon God and Conditional Love

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_Infymus
_Emeritus
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Post by _Infymus »

Gazelam wrote:Perdition means one that is lost. As in he was once found, but is now lost.

Ok, so hes not dead yet, and could still repent, but I see no signs of this, just an aggresive stance against the things of God. So you tell me, where do you think he stands, and who does he serve?


I don’t believe that Harmony can answer that question for you, only I can.

I will never repent to the Mormon God, or any God for that matter. Now that I have been out of Mormonism for five years and run one of the largest “anti” Mormon sites on the web, I have a totally new perspective on Mormonism and in religion as a whole.

My view is that religion, while not entirely at fault, is one of the most detrimental influences to mankind that has ever been created. I myself do not consider myself an atheist, nor a secular humanist or any other kind of label. Quite frankly, I do not care if a God exists or does not exist. I have come to the stark realization that this time that I live now is all that I have. I do not care about life after death, nor do I believe that there will be such a case. I am resigned that when I die, the game is over and all time and eternity will pass around my remains and I will be quietly absent from it.

This acceptance has brought new meaning into my life. I love my wife more. I love my children more. I gave up my personal wants and desires after work to spend all of my free time raising my children and spending time with my wife. I watch with sadness as family members who are entrenched in the Mormon Corporation have to choose between eating and paying tithing – and watching them starve because they paid their money to the cult. I watch their cars break down, their houses become dilapidated all because they cannot afford to “live”. I watch their lives devoid of richness, of meaning – because they spend all of their time in callings, temple service and Mormon Corporation business – and in the end, they offer nothing to mankind – and at the same time, see that the Mormon Church offers them nothing back except promises of blessings and salvation.

Life has improved a thousand fold for me since I left Mormonism. My perspectives have broadened. I no longer rely on “it will be solved in the next life” mentality that Mormonism taught me. I care more. I am more responsible. But best of all, I am guilt free and have grown to love myself in a way that Mormonism would never let me.

I am truly free. Satan has not sifted me as wheat. My life has not grown worse. The threats of “You will never be what you could have been if you stayed Mormon” have fallen away. I am no longer bitter, angry or resentful of how I was treated, lied to and miss-guided in Mormonism. Now my goals are to help others who are struggling with Mormonism and to help guide them to knowledge and healing.

You ask who I serve? Well, depending upon the time of day, my boss, my wife, my beautiful daughter or my sweet son. Other times I serve myself and my own purpose as I plant tomatoes in the garden or wax my car. I take solemn walks and contemplate life. Each fills me with rewards and happiness – something I never found nor ever would find in Mormonism. I trust myself; I trust in the arm of my own flesh and find that it works very well for me. All of those things about my individuality including my own strengths, my own voice, my own volition, and my own thought and destiny – I explore and have found strengths in them. These were all things that Mormonism commanded that I abandon before Jesus Christ would love me. Why would he not love me for who I was? Why did I have to conform to his standards? You get the picture.

If that doesn’t answer your question Gaz, I don’t know what will. Personally I think you are looking for a way to point the finger – because your religion demands it. The old dogma still works: I left the church: Satan will now have hold of me. Wait, Satan didn’t do anything – so I am being blessed to test the faithful. There is always an answer for everything in order to place me in perspective, label me, judge me.

Cheers Gaz, I hope that you are truly happy with what you have accepted.
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Infymus, forgive Gaz for his myopic view.

But on another note, your post was beautiful. But I doubt the condemning, judgemental Mormons on here will see the value in your words. They'll just write you off as a liar and bury their heads in their BOMs.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Juggler Vain
_Emeritus
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Post by _Juggler Vain »

GIMR wrote:I do agree with Infymus' view, that the Mormon God is a god of conditional love, and I do not understand how the church cannot see this, and even worse, tell those who know better that it ain't so.

The Church has done a much better job of telling people about this than you are giving it credit for. Russell M. Nelson wrote an entire Ensign article about it in 2003, in which he emphasized very clearly and repeatedly that God's love is conditional. Here is my favorite quote from that article:

Elder Russell M. Nelson wrote:Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly “unconditional” can defend us against common fallacies such as these: “Since God’s love is unconditional, He will love me regardless …”; or “Since ‘God is love,’ He will love me unconditionally, regardless …”

These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Nehor, for example, promoted himself by teaching falsehoods: He “testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, … for the Lord had created all men, … and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.” Sadly, some of the people believed Nehor’s fallacious and unconditional concepts.

Russell M. Nelson, “Divine Love,” Ensign, Feb. 2003, 20


Yes, "unconditional love" advocates are using the deceptive arguments of anti-Christs. This is clear as can be. Despite this authoritative article, however, I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange.

-JV
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_OUT OF MY MISERY
_Emeritus
Posts: 922
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:32 pm

Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

GIMR wrote:

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.



Imfymus's Blog Is pretty Cool by the way.....

I have got to wonder just how many Gods there are...and why certain God's are so mean and intimidating?????

I have always wanted to meet God...and have a nice long talk with him...my God would love you all...He would tell me the meaning of life....I already know the meaning of life....we all do actually....
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_Juggler Vain
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:51 pm

Post by _Juggler Vain »

GIMR wrote:

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.

Are you saying that your friends actions say "conditional" but his lips say "unconditional"?

-JV
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Jason...

think being a parent and having a few wayward kids has got me to thinking about this a lot. I cannot imagine not accepting or wanting a child with me even if they are not totally following the rules. I think I would be there for them always, though I may not like what they do. I think I would allow them back home even if they did not meet all the rules. And in fact I believe that gospel expects us to be this way.

I have asked if this is the case, why would God be any different towards us then he expects us to be towards our children.

Now, the LDS Church is not unique in some of the complaints along these lines. Evangelical Christianity takes the position the God is totally Holy and Sovereign. Since we are His creation he can do whatever he wants. Not only that, since we are utterly depraved and sinful we only get back to Him on His mercy and that mercy seems, well, whimsical to me.

In LDS ideas about the after life there is the idea of spirit prison, varying degrees of glory and separation from God and family potentially forever. I guess I like the idea of the prodigal son, but then I have been accused of wanting a God that is just touchy feely and all nice. I am told that God is Holy, Just and justice demands punishment. God is also merciful and that is why God sent Jesus, to be punished for my sins. But that is kind of like beating one of my kids for what another does.

Well, I am rambling.


No.. you are not rambling. You are sharing thoughts and questions we have all contemplated; ideas that do not make sense to us consequently ideas we no longer accept.

You speak to some of the difficulties I struggled with as a believer. The more I studied the God of Mormonism, the worse "he" got. To believe, more and more I had to let go of what I believed and felt was right, to try to embrace what felt wrong, hurtful, cruel, and unhealthy.

At some point, for me... I had to let it go. I no longer feel a need to try to make sense of "stuff" that just didn't work for me.

Thanks for your post! :-)

~dancer~
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I will never repent to the Mormon God, or any God for that matter. Now that I have been out of Mormonism for five years and run one of the largest “anti” Mormon sites on the web, I have a totally new perspective on Mormonism and in religion as a whole.



Does this take away from the time you could do the things you say you love to do below? Did you just trade one religion for another?



This acceptance has brought new meaning into my life. I love my wife more. I love my children more. I gave up my personal wants and desires after work to spend all of my free time raising my children and spending time with my wife
.

I am pleased for you that your choices have brought fulfillment to you.



I watch with sadness as family members who are entrenched in the Mormon Corporation have to choose between eating and paying tithing – and watching them starve because they paid their money to the cult. I watch their cars break down, their houses become dilapidated all because they cannot afford to “live”. I watch their lives devoid of richness, of meaning – because they spend all of their time in callings, temple service and Mormon Corporation business – and in the end, they offer nothing to mankind – and at the same time, see that the Mormon Church offers them nothing back except promises of blessings and salvation.



One, you almost sound like they may sound when might complain about your apostasy. By the way, I see few LDS starve or have major financial problems because of tithing. 10% will not solve money problems alone. Also, maybe they really enjoy their service and devotions. Maybe it brings them as much joy as you seem to have by leaving the LDS Church.

Life has improved a thousand fold for me since I left Mormonism. My perspectives have broadened. I no longer rely on “it will be solved in the next life” mentality that Mormonism taught me. I care more. I am more responsible. But best of all, I am guilt free and have grown to love myself in a way that Mormonism would never let me.


I am sincerely happy for you.

I am truly free. Satan has not sifted me as wheat. My life has not grown worse. The threats of “You will never be what you could have been if you stayed Mormon” have fallen away. I am no longer bitter, angry or resentful of how I was treated, lied to and miss-guided in Mormonism. Now my goals are to help others who are struggling with Mormonism and to help guide them to knowledge and healing.


I will have to take your word or it but some of your posts here show a lot of bitterness and spending the time you need to spend on one of the largest anti LDS sites on the net does not seem healthy or demonstrate that you are not bitter or angry.

You ask who I serve? Well, depending upon the time of day, my boss, my wife, my beautiful daughter or my sweet son. Other times I serve myself and my own purpose as I plant tomatoes in the garden or wax my car. I take solemn walks and contemplate life. Each fills me with rewards and happiness – something I never found nor ever would find in Mormonism. I trust myself; I trust in the arm of my own flesh and find that it works very well for me. All of those things about my individuality including my own strengths, my own voice, my own volition, and my own thought and destiny – I explore and have found strengths in them.



Well I manage as and active LDS to do a lot of that as well.

These were all things that Mormonism commanded that I abandon before Jesus Christ would love me. Why would he not love me for who I was? Why did I have to conform to his standards? You get the picture.


Why did Mormonism prevent you from serving your "boss, my wife, my beautiful daughter or my sweet son. Other times I serve myself and my own purpose as I plant tomatoes in the garden or wax my car. I take solemn walks and contemplate life. Each fills me with rewards and happiness – " I do all that as a Mormon.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

GIMR wrote:

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.


Does the evangelical Christian God love unconditionally?
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
GIMR wrote:

Code: Select all

I haven't met any believing Mormons who believe God loves us conditionally. Strange. 


Well I have. I've watched a particularly close friend micromanage his spiritual life because he's so scared God will love him less. He's spoken about God's favor being on LDS more than others, and is so sad that I'm a moral, spiritual, and kind person who doesn't go to church every sunday. My life doesn't matter, where I show up on sunday does, and that is conditional love. God really only favors me when I show up in an LDS chapel and "partake of the fullness of the Gospel".

I sometimes call him out on his views, and he agrees with me with his lips, but his actions say otherwise.


Does the evangelical Christian God love unconditionally?


No.
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