"Spiritual Infidelity"?????

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_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Gazelam wrote:I would have to say it would depend on the individual cases. To what extent is the person apostate? Is he building anti-mormon websites? Does he/she simply have a problem with the current bishop? It all depends. If the spouse is preaching against the church to the children, then I would say get divorced. If its just a minor matter, then stay.


So, Gazelam, I "preach" against the Church to my children. They know darn well what I believe and why. Should my wife divorce me?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Image
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Parents simply cannot flirt with skepticism or cynicism, then be surprised when their children expand that flirtation into full-blown romance. If in matters of faith and belief children are at risk of being swept downstream by this intellectual current or that cultural rapid, we as their parents must be more certain than ever to hold to anchored, unmistakable moorings clearly recognizable to those of our own household. It won’t help anyone if we go over the edge with them, explaining through the roar of the falls all the way down that we really did know the Church was true and that the keys of the priesthood really were lodged there but we just didn’t want to stifle anyone’s freedom to think otherwise. No, we can hardly expect the children to get to shore safely if the parents don’t seem to know where to anchor their own boat. Isaiah once used a variation on such imagery when he said of unbelievers, “[Their] tacklings are loosed; they could not . . . strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail.”6

I think some parents may not understand that even when they feel secure in their own minds regarding matters of personal testimony, they can nevertheless make that faith too difficult for their children to detect. We can be reasonably active, meeting-going Latter-day Saints, but if we do not live lives of gospel integrity and convey to our children powerful heartfelt convictions regarding the truthfulness of the Restoration and the divine guidance of the Church from the First Vision to this very hour, then those children may, to our regret but not surprise, turn out not to be visibly active, meeting-going Latter-day Saints or sometimes anything close to it.

Not long ago Sister Holland and I met a fine young man who came in contact with us after he had been roaming around through the occult and sorting through a variety of Eastern religions, all in an attempt to find religious faith. His father, he admitted, believed in nothing whatsoever. But his grandfather, he said, was actually a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. “But he didn’t do much with it,” the young man said. “He was always pretty cynical about the Church.” From a grandfather who is cynical to a son who is agnostic to a grandson who is now looking desperately for what God had already once given his family! What a classic example of the warning Elder Richard L. Evans once gave.

Said he: “Sometimes some parents mistakenly feel that they can relax a little as to conduct and conformity or take perhaps a so called liberal view of basic and fundamental things—thinking that a little laxness or indulgence won’t matter—or they may fail to teach or to attend Church, or may voice critical views. Some parents . . . seem to feel that they can ease up a little on the fundamentals without affecting their family or their family’s future. But,” he observed, “if a parent goes a little off course, the children are likely to exceed the parent’s example.”7

To lead a child (or anyone else!), even inadvertently, away from faithfulness, away from loyalty and bedrock belief simply because we want to be clever or independent is license no parent nor any other person has ever been given. In matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart, and analytical deconstruction in the field of, say, literary fiction can be just plain old-fashioned destruction when transferred to families yearning for faith at home. And such a deviation from the true course can be deceptively slow and subtle in its impact. As one observer said, “[If you raise the temperature of my] bath water . . . only 1 degree every 10 minutes, how [will I] know when to scream?”8

Full address: http://LDS.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-353-29,00.html
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_guy sajer
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Re: "Spiritual Infidelity"?????

Post by _guy sajer »

liz3564 wrote:Bsix has started an interesting thread on MAD. He used the term "spiritual infidelity" when referring to an apostate spouse. It's an interesting choice of terms.

Here are his comments from the thread. I thought I would throw it out here for some insights as well:

In the case of a sincere temple marriage in which one partner chooses to stop believing and practicing Mormonism...does the still faithful Latter Day Saint spouse have the moral right to end the marriage if they want?

Is that a terrible thing?

Is it insensitive?

Is it placing a love of God and heaven over a love of an apostate spouse?

Is the desire to have an eternal family justification to end a marriage and break up a family?

Is ending such a marriage justified because to continue puts the faith and eternal welfare of children at risk?

Is divorce for such a reason an act of bigotry?

Is spiritual infidelity as justifiable reason for divorce as adultery, failure to support, abandonment, abuse?

Are views on this subject tainted by the believing (or unbelief) of the beholder?

I would not automatically advocate divorce in the case of an apostate spouse. Each situation is different. However, in cases where a temple marriage was entered into with sincerity and eternal promises made, I can see where apostacy is a form of infidelity as cruel and betraying as sexual infidelity. I can see a believing spouse desiring to move on in their desire to find a spiritual spouse.


This argument, of course, applies ONLY to Mormon apostates. If the couple in question were, say Baptist, and the husband converted to Mormonism, would Bsix make the same argument?

As is typical of aguments advanced by true believers, this is an argument of convenience, not an argument of principle. In the above example, which is every bit a "spiritual adultery" as a Mormon spouse who converts to another religion or belief, Bsix would talk proudly of the "courage" of the formerly Baptist spouse. More, Bsix would probably endorse wholeheartedly if the now Mormon spouse went further to endeavor to convert the children to Mormonism, contrary to the wishes of the Baptist spouse.

Can anyone here tell me what the critical difference is between the two cases?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Jason Bourne
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Re: "Spiritual Infidelity"?????

Post by _Jason Bourne »

This argument, of course, applies ONLY to Mormon apostates. If the couple in question were, say Baptist, and the husband converted to Mormonism, would Bsix make the same argument?

As is typical of augments advanced by true believers, this is an argument of convenience, not an argument of principle. In the above example, which is every bit a "spiritual adultery" as a Mormon spouse who converts to another religion or belief, Bsix would talk proudly of the "courage" of the formerly Baptist spouse. More, Bsix would probably endorse wholeheartedly if the now Mormon spouse went further to endeavor to convert the children to Mormonism, contrary to the wishes of the Baptist spouse.

Can anyone here tell me what the critical difference is between the two cases?


There is no difference. You are correct, though whether this person bsix would react the way you state is an unknown.

But just like TD pointed out, if two agnostics marry and agree religion is not part of their life and the one later becomes a Mormon then that spouse has reneged on part of the promise. If a Jew marries a believing Jew and they agree to raise their children Jewish and one becomes a Christian then it is exactly what bsix describes. Same if two Catholics marry as Catholics and then one becomes a Mormon.

I would not call it spiritual adultery but it certainly is changing the ground rules that the marriage started on.

But people change in all sorts of ways. Things that I thought my wife was I may have missed out on and got wrong. She did not know that I have some of the hang ups that I have that maybe I did not know about. Marriage is all about working together to make a full rich relationship is spite of all this.

Yes I think that when two agree on a faith and one changes that it is a major issue. I do not believe it is grounds to terminate unless one, or the other, is abusive about it.

As I have explored my LDS faith and found that things are not as I thought they were my wife and I have talked. I have feared for our marriage. I asked her if I abandoned the LDS faith if when would leave me. We have discussed what she might do if I were interested in worshipping elsewhere or not at all. We have come to some understanding on these things. I believe whatever the our come, as long as we are decent and respectful to each other about our faith, what we believe or do not believe we will be fine and our love for each other will grow.

So, I would rarely see changing beliefs on one spouses part as reason for ending the marriage. I think that fact that this bsix would think it is ok is wrong and in fact contrary to what the Church would want, as well as the Bible. Paul said the believing spouse should stick with the unbelieving spouse.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Hi Gaz! :)

Although I understand your point in posting Elder Holland's talk, I don't think this gives couples license to divorce due to religious differences.

I do think that I understand where some of Bsix's point is as far as the devastation one spouse may feel if one spouse ceased to believe after making covenants in the temple, due to LDS culture.

However, that, in itself, is certainly not grounds for divorce. And I think that Church leaders would agree with me on that point.
_Mary
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Post by _Mary »

but if we do not live lives of gospel integrity


There's the rub, for some to live lives of 'integrity' entails leaving a religion they no longer believe to be entirely correct.



Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with Juliann on this issue. The family Trump's.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Paul said the believing spouse should stick with the unbelieving spouse.



Jason...you'll get a chuckle if you read the actual MAD thread(I won't bother posting the link because it won't work from this site, anyway. For those interested, the name of the thread is "Spiritual Infidelity"). BSix has to do some serious side-stepping in his justification of Paul's scripture. LOL
_Sam Harris
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Re: "Spiritual Infidelity"?????

Post by _Sam Harris »

liz3564 wrote:Bsix has started an interesting thread on MAD. He used the term "spiritual infidelity" when referring to an apostate spouse. It's an interesting choice of terms.

Here are his comments from the thread. I thought I would throw it out here for some insights as well:

In the case of a sincere temple marriage in which one partner chooses to stop believing and practicing Mormonism...does the still faithful Latter Day Saint spouse have the moral right to end the marriage if they want?

Is that a terrible thing?

Is it insensitive?

Is it placing a love of God and heaven over a love of an apostate spouse?

Is the desire to have an eternal family justification to end a marriage and break up a family?

Is ending such a marriage justified because to continue puts the faith and eternal welfare of children at risk?

Is divorce for such a reason an act of bigotry?

Is spiritual infidelity as justifiable reason for divorce as adultery, failure to support, abandonment, abuse?

Are views on this subject tainted by the believing (or unbelief) of the beholder?

I would not automatically advocate divorce in the case of an apostate spouse. Each situation is different. However, in cases where a temple marriage was entered into with sincerity and eternal promises made, I can see where apostacy is a form of infidelity as cruel and betraying as sexual infidelity. I can see a believing spouse desiring to move on in their desire to find a spiritual spouse.


*sigh*

What about the teaching of the unbelieving spouse being sanctified by the believing one? Is that one of those things that are incorrectly translated? How can someone press towards the destruction of a family based on a theological difference? My BF doesn't go to church, and if I were to marry him, I'd never pressure him to. Ethics is more important to me than religion.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

As long as there's a possibility that they can work it out (and many couples have), throwing away a marriage, especially one with children, is against those same temple vows they're so anxious to preserve.


Harmony's statement here is what is profoundly overlooked by those who share Bsix's position.

Nowhere in our canon, or in updated conference talks do Church leaders encourage divorce based on religious differences. Now, yes, it is true that marrying within the faith is encouraged.

And, I can understand where Bsix is going in regards to some of the hurt a believing spouse would feel...but if there are children involved, then you have more than your own feelings to consider. And, as TD pointed out, unless the "apostate" spouse is guilty of abuse or neglect, they will maintain some form of custody with the children. If you're supposedly divorcing your spouse to "find someone more worthy", then what are you doing to your kids? It seems like you're putting your kids through additional trauma just to satisfy your own needs.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Again I would say if the spouse is passive regarding beliefs, that's one thing, but if the apostate is preaching against the church to the children. Then its time to separate.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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