liz3564 wrote:These people in the wagon were not guilty of anything. I don't understand why the Church has been silent about this for so long. Why can't they admit that the people who did this were wrong?
I have heard different stories about whether or not Brigham Young was guilty of ordering the attack; some say he tried to stop it from happening, but couldn't get word in time.
I love that excuse. President Young tried to tell the Mormons not to slaughter the wagon train, but the message arrived too late. I always wondered, why did the Mormons need to be told not to murder? Isn't NOT murdering the default position?
liz3564 wrote:These people in the wagon were not guilty of anything. I don't understand why the Church has been silent about this for so long. Why can't they admit that the people who did this were wrong?
I have heard different stories about whether or not Brigham Young was guilty of ordering the attack; some say he tried to stop it from happening, but couldn't get word in time.
I love that excuse. President Young tried to tell the Mormons not to slaughter the wagon train, but the message arrived too late. I always wondered, why did the Mormons need to be told not to murder? Isn't NOT murdering the default position?
Not murdering certainly SHOULD be the default position. Rollo is knowledgeable about this. Maybe he can share some light on this topic. My understanding is that this renegade group took matters into their own hands. They had sent someone to ride back to SLC to ask for Brigham Young's advice on the wagon party, but did not wait for an answer back before moving ahead.
The conflict was that there was another group that was rumored to be traveling with them from Missouri, who had the gun which killed Joseph Smith. This group was apparently hostile toward the Church, and in the midst of Brigham Young having declared martial law due to the upset between Utah and the US government, there was a lot of heresay going on.
Whether or not Brigham Young condoned what was happening or not....these people acted irreprehensibly. There is no excuse...and no words sufficient to describe this blatant, repugnant, autroicity. What these men did sickens me.
Gazelam wrote:"And this massacre is going to be the subject of September Dawn. The indie film will set a love story against the tragedy, and is written and directed by Christopher Cain, who I'm told is Dean's dad. John Voight is playing the lead of the Mormon killer group, while Lolita Davidovich will play a wagon-trainer who stands up to him. The movie has started filming this week in Canada."
Dean Cain as Joseph Smith in a flashback. Interesting.
This whole thing was really screwed up. If they play the wagon trainers off as innocent, that will be a real crime. All three parties were guilty of something there.
It almost sounds like theyre going to make this move "the hills have eyes" in old west days. No doubt it wil be a hack job, hopefuly it will be a direct to video release that will quickly be forgotten.
While I suspect this movie won't be very good (it's been sitting around waiting for a distributor for a long time).
Really? It's been on the shelf due to a lack of distributor? I wondered why it hadn't opened yet. I recently tried to find information on this film, as I had heard that it was supposed to appear in theaters in Fall of 2006, but had a difficult time locating any good "intel". It made me wonder if the Church and its various media resources stepped in to intervene somehow. After all, the Church has an ugly history of successfully squelching movie projects about MMM.
Going from memory of my trip there last summer, and the man who had studied what had happened giving a lecture, heres the story as I remember it. If anyone wants to correct me please do so.
The group in the wagon train had stopped there to stay and rest and refuel in the fertile little valley before trying to cross the hostile desert on their way to California. The Mormons from Cedar city were worried because of the word they got about hostility towards Mormons, like the word about the gun they had that had shot Joseph being among the party. As I recall they were simply going to avoid contact and let them move along.
The local Mormons had an agreement going with the Indians that they would protect one another in the case of a fight, and somehow the wagon train got in a fight with the indians. So the chief (or whatever) went to the Mormons and asked for them to keep their end of the bargain and help in the fight.
There was a long siege and eventually the surviveing members of the wagon train surrendered. Heres the bad part, the Mormons were told that the wagon train would return with the army and finish the fight. Now put yourself in their shoes. driven from Missouri, driven from Nauvoo, crossed th eplains to find peace, and now this.
The women and children were separated, and on the command of "do your duty" all wagon train members over the age of eight were killed. Any children under age 8 were adopted by the locals and were for years raised until family members from Arkansas (I think) eventually claimed the children. Furniture from the wagons was used in the local hotel.
There was no good side in the fight. The whole thing was ugly and stupid, spawned by ignorance and fear on everyones part. To my memory the people of Cedar city had alot of problems beyond just what happened in MM.
Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Gazelam wrote:Going from memory of my trip there last summer, and the man who had studied what had happened giving a lecture, heres the story as I remember it. If anyone wants to correct me please do so.
The group in the wagon train had stopped there to stay and rest and refuel in the fertile little valley before trying to cross the hostile desert on their way to California. The Mormons from Cedar city were worried because of the word they got about hostility towards Mormons, like the word about the gun they had that had shot Joseph being among the party. As I recall they were simply going to avoid contact and let them move along.
The local Mormons had an agreement going with the Indians that they would protect one another in the case of a fight, and somehow the wagon train got in a fight with the indians. So the chief (or whatever) went to the Mormons and asked for them to keep their end of the bargain and help in the fight.
There was a long siege and eventually the surviveing members of the wagon train surrendered. Heres the bad part, the Mormons were told that the wagon train would return with the army and finish the fight. Now put yourself in their shoes. driven from Missouri, driven from Nauvoo, crossed th eplains to find peace, and now this.
The women and children were separated, and on the command of "do your duty" all wagon train members over the age of eight were killed. Any children under age 8 were adopted by the locals and were for years raised until family members from Arkansas (I think) eventually claimed the children. Furniture from the wagons was used in the local hotel.
There was no good side in the fight. The whole thing was ugly and stupid, spawned by ignorance and fear on everyones part. To my memory the people of Cedar city had alot of problems beyond just what happened in MM.
Gaz
The wagon train members did not get in a fight with the Indians, nor with the Mormons.
And even if they had, how would that have justified being murdered in cold blood. What was their "responsibility" that you mentioned above?
Can you please just acknowledge the Fancher party had no responsibility whatsoever in this horrific tragedy? They were victims. Do you get that? Do you get how reprehensible it is for you to intimate they had some responsibility for their own gruesome deaths? Did you read their names? Did you get it that these were decent human beings, as deserving of life as you are?
And this is all, of course, moot, as there is not the slightest shred of historical evidence that "the church" had anything to do with this tragic, isolated incident.
As the old leftwing slogan goes, "reuse, recycle"...
A few lines from the "wiki" article on the subject:
"The wagon train had been joined by a group of eleven miners and plainsmen who called themselves "Missouri Wildcats." Some of them reportedly taunted, vandalized and "caused trouble" for Mormons and Native Americans along the route (by some accounts claiming they had the gun that "shot the guts out of Old Joe Smith"[11]) and stories of this spread through Mormon communities,[12] although it is uncertain whether or not the Missouri Wildcat group stayed with the slow-moving Fancher party after leaving Salt Lake City.[13] Moreover, popular Mormon leader Parley P. Pratt had been murdered in Arkansas a few months earlier (by the ex-husband of one of Pratt's plural wives[14]) and news of his death had only recently begun to arrive in the area.[15] These rumors, martial law, threats of war and limited supplies all likely influenced individual Mormons who didn't sell food to the Fancher party."
From other sites I visited it appears that while paiutes were involved, some of the local Mormons were involved from the start also.
Gazelam wrote:A few lines from the "wiki" article on the subject:
"The wagon train had been joined by a group of eleven miners and plainsmen who called themselves "Missouri Wildcats." Some of them reportedly taunted, vandalized and "caused trouble" for Mormons and Native Americans along the route (by some accounts claiming they had the gun that "shot the guts out of Old Joe Smith"[11]) and stories of this spread through Mormon communities,[12] although it is uncertain whether or not the Missouri Wildcat group stayed with the slow-moving Fancher party after leaving Salt Lake City.[13] Moreover, popular Mormon leader Parley P. Pratt had been murdered in Arkansas a few months earlier (by the ex-husband of one of Pratt's plural wives[14]) and news of his death had only recently begun to arrive in the area.[15] These rumors, martial law, threats of war and limited supplies all likely influenced individual Mormons who didn't sell food to the Fancher party."
From other sites I visited it appears that while paiutes were involved, some of the local Mormons were involved from the start also.
I read the Wiki article, too, Gaz. Explain to me how this justifies what happened. It doesn't. The Mormons involved knew damned good and well that they were slaughtering women and children. Read the account. It was a methodical slaughtering.
There is no justification for what happened. None. If there is a hell, those murderers should be rotting in it. The Telestial kingdom is too good for them.
Picture yourself watching your 9 year old getting shot execution style and then talk to me about justification.