Teaching children decency, integrity, ethics, principles....

[_Ray A]

Have you read End of Faith by any chance? Sam Harris does a great job of presenting a picture of where we are (in my opinion).

TD, no I haven't read The End of Faith but it's a book I would like to read. I think people have mostly abandoned traditional religion and are opting for alternative spirituality, which sometimes does include the use of subtances like marijuana. Bob Marley was a heavy marijuana smoker, as it was a part of his religion, Rastarfarianism. Incidentally, he believed he was a reincarnation of the Biblical Joseph. Marley wrote songs which captured many of the problems with society, and I feel he did more to help and inspire people than many organised religions do. Here is an excerpt from an article about him:

For the past 22 years, I have toured the planet with a multimedia presentation called The Life of Bob Marley, witnessing first-hand the profound effect he has had on disparate nations. In between unreleased film and video clips I tell his life story in places as far apart - spiritually as well as physically - as the bottom of the Grand Canyon and Mount Zion itself in Israel.

After many of these programmes, there always seems to be at least one person who comes up to tell me that "Bob Marley's music literally saved my life." That's because Marley stood for something; his music was filled with moral lessons and gave hope to people who were suffering for no other reason than an accident of birth.

He himself had risen from dire poverty to become the confidant of kings, sought after by those he called 'poli-tricksters,' and others who tried to co-opt his shamanistic charisma. He rejected them all, and it nearly cost him his life.

I think what we need today is more people who recognise what Marley did, that conventional religion is more of a divider than a healer, on the larger levels of society, and people need meaning beyond ritual. Not to detract from those who find meaning in religion, but my increasing observations tell me that religion divides more than unites people, and we lose, if you like, our mutual sense of universality, lost in creeds and dogmas.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Hi Bond...

Thanks so much for your thoughts...

Here is the difficulty for me... It just seems like the stakes are much higher than they have been ever before in the history of the world.

They are much higher, for the survival of the human species. The world just moves so much faster nowadays. Technology.

With the technology we have today we can very easily destroy our species. We are destroying our planet in ways unlike any other time in history.

We could easily destroy our species. Destroying the planet would take a comet or some other extraterrestial influence. We can't destroy the Earth ourselves. We can scar it yes, but in time it would repair itself.

Absolutely there are great families teaching great things to children... I'm thinking more world wide though. As a world, are we doing a great job of teaching children the basic stuff? The teachings that will make a difference?

I'm not talking about dogma, church rules, or whatever, I'm thinking more in line of caring for other humans, living an honest life, respecting others, valueing our planet.

All we can do is our best. I don't think a just God can ask for more.

I actually think the young people of today are amazing! Much more aware, creative, powerful, independent, brilliant than any other generation... I don't think there is anything wrong with them at all.

We try. ;-)

My concerns are more along the line of... global warming issues, WMP, things that our world has never had to face. Will we figure it all out before it is too late for our little children?

Hopefully we can figure it out. I too am afraid for the destruction of the human race. Those issues may wipe out the human race, but they won't ruin life I don't guess. Humans have only been around a few million years, which compared to the earths billions of years is only a drop in the bucket. I daresay if humans went extinct something would evolve in a few million years and replace us.

Does that make sense?

Of course. ;-)

Maybe it is that I am just out of touch with reality or something (smile)... I'm open to this actually.

:-)

I would gladly accept being the only one out of touch with reality if it meant that we lived in a perfect world. Sadly I think I'm all too in touch with reality. :(

~dancer~

Ohhh also, in many ways I think the world is much more healthy and advanced than at any other time in history... I do not think the world is less decent than in past generations or anything like that. Quite the opposite actually.

I too think we're advanced. I much prefer this world with its uncertainty to the uncertainty provided by lack of scientific knowledge. We live longer, we live better, and subsistence living is a thing of the past. We have enough time to pursue just about any type of artistic or career path we choose and we still have time to watch 2 hours of TV every night. All in all I prefer today over the Dark Ages.

Hopefully we can all be decent. We should strive for a perfect world but I'll settle for a decent one.

Bond

[_moksha]

For the Parents:
Teach your children well,
and feed them on your dreams....

For the Children:
And You, of tender years,
Can't know the fears
that your elders grew by,
And so please help them
with your youth,
They seek the truth
before they can die.
Don't you ever ask them why,
if they told you, you would cry,
So just look at them and sigh
and know they love you.

- From a past popular song

I suspect this is a cycle.

[_Mary]

Hi Truth Dancer.

Where are our children going to learn decency, integrity, ethics, and principles?

From what I understand, (and I agree with it) children's greatest influence, particularly in the younger years are their parents.

So I'd say that children will learn decency, integrity, ethics and principles primarily from the parents, and they'll learn it by what the parents
practice rather than what the parents say or teach. (just my opinion)

Next, I think it is important to investigate 'why' children behave the way they do.

So, maybe some are behaving in such a way because of 'fear'. Fear of punishment either by earthly or 'heavenly' forces. The desire for approval and social acceptance. All those motives are good, but there comes a point in development where 'wisdom' steps in and a person behaves in such a way because that is authentically who they are.

(All this is just my opinion of course)

Mary

[_Roger Morrison]

Where are our children going to learn decency, integrity, ethics, and principles?

Hi TD, as always the probe:-) I'll insert my responses in italics

Where are the great role models for children today? Homes, schools, communities, media, churches.. more places than our great grand parents had...

How often are children exposed to really great people these days? Daily, as they are to the not-so-great. Or truly great ideas for bringing peace and healing to our world? Same answer.

Children will not learn decency and integrity from politicians, movie stars, athletic greats, business people, or world leaders...

IMSCO, they can learn both positive and negative attributes from from these people-pools. Exposure is all important. Many see the negs and decide not for me... Publicly traded reputations and transparency can play a significant role in determination of choice of roads...

Certainly not from the media or mainstream society...

Dancer, Mee thinks ya might be falling under some 'evil' influences :-) ... Sort-of the wheat and tares thing i respectfully suggest... I would not want to live without media, in a hush-hush censored society. Are there media "spins" manipulations, deletions, exagerations, favouritisms, etc... of course. As well as there are disclosures, exposes--with the little accent above the "e"--heart-warming stories, and continuous information both good and bad... "...mainstream..."?? WE are mainstream! With the flow or against the current we's in there. Swimming or drowing with the best and worse... It really ain't all that bad, ya know. Especially when swimming with friends, like here, eh! :-)

Often basic principles are not taught in school (for good or bad)... Where they ever? "Sit-up-shut-up AND face-the-front!" Dunce-caps! Standing in the corner? Punished for errors! Rigid and frigid Masters and Marms?...

Seems most religions are more interested in ritual, eliticism, and rewards of the afterlife than they are about real world issues... As they always have been...Calvin, Wesley et al. Then there was Booth and Raikes with a more Social Gospel... Now we do have Joel Osteen and emerging others who are less blood-oriented and encourage good-works and attention to behavioural changes along principles of goodness... Faith in themselve to do the right thing is far more correct than personal hopelessness and dependentcy on mystical redemption...

Families are so busy with the overwhelming demands of life seems there is little time for learning the basics of ethics and integrity... In full agreement here! BUT, as illiterate serfs, and semi-slaves in mines, mills and sweat-shops did parents and homes do much better in the past? I think not... Agrarian life was not all that idylic either... Then, "Man was King of His castle!" What abuses went on were no one's business.


I'm just feeling a little sorrowful at the moment. That's OK! Yer only human, and a better one is hard to find :-)

I know there are great people, great organizations, great ideas but I worry for the little ones growing up in this world. So do i. I'm not talking about where they "should" learn this but where "will" they learn it... In their respective environments of nurturing luck. how will they learn it? By observation and exerience...trial and error, and being smart...

I'm asking that this discussion be respectful... (smile). Any thoughts?

Thanks!

;-)

~dancer~

Ya got 'em for what there worth :-) Your concerns are valid and i think shared by most intelligent and responsible folks. Personally, i have encountered many young people who are head and shoulders above their ancestors. Fewer follow the traditional, "Dad/Mom voted XYZ, so i vote XYZ!" So loyalties are more chosen than inherited; much to the consternation of many... NGOs were little known 3 generations ago. Now they play significant roles in social changes. Again to the angst of traditionalists... Ever thus!

As others stated, we often attack symptoms as causes. That too is changing with better thinking, and information. Generally speaking, sign-reading has not been one of humanity's strong points. IMSCO, sensible-spiritual secularism will lead future generations out of traditional unspiritual religious dogmatism. As "God" intends... Warm regards, Roger

[_Jason Bourne]

What, in the world does this sentence have to do with anything?

Please tell me how any prophets have helped? You think building a mall is going to solve global warming? Or wearing certain clothes or having specific hairstyles, is going to change the minds of terrorists? Do you think going to the temple is going to provide food for starving children? What? I have no idea what you are thinking on this....

One problem with you comments it that LDS leaders do teach more then this. Here, on this board, the extreme and odd things get emphasized. I think Pres. Hinckleys book on the Be's was mostly pretty good. LDS leaders talk and teach about intergrity, honesty, morals and other of these issues all the time. And other religous leaders do as well.

in my opinion, the idea that God is going to come down and save everyone is exactly what will thwart the effort to make a difference.

I do no think the LDS Church teaches that we should sit around and wait for this.

Sorry... but I have yet to see a prophet help someone with sexual addiction, child abuse, depression, bi-polar disorder, domestic violence, PTSD, mental health issues, or any number of challenges people face.

I think many a good church leader, bishop, Relief Society pres, YW pres, YM pres and so on has helped many people with many of these things in many quiet ways. I have witnessed it and even done it.



~dancer~[/quote]

[_truth dancer]

Hi Kevin...

I'm not saying people can't help one another... I'm suggesting that listening to talks by prophets are not usually the way to heal mental health issues, or numerous others difficult issues for which most people see a professional.

I agree that there are great teachings in most religions.

There are millions of people who believe some otherworldly being is going to come down and save the world from evil.

My personal opinion is, that this belief is not helpful in helping humankind find solutions to our problems.

~dancer~

[_Roger Morrison]

What, in the world does this sentence have to do with anything?

Please tell me how any prophets have helped? You think building a mall is going to solve global warming? Or wearing certain clothes or having specific hairstyles, is going to change the minds of terrorists? Do you think going to the temple is going to provide food for starving children? What? I have no idea what you are thinking on this....

One problem with you comments it that LDS leaders do teach more then this. Here, on this board, the extreme and odd things get emphasized. I think Pres. Hinckleys book on the Be's was mostly pretty good. LDS leaders talk and teach about intergrity, honesty, morals and other of these issues all the time. And other religous leaders do as well.

in my opinion, the idea that God is going to come down and save everyone is exactly what will thwart the effort to make a difference.

I do no think the LDS Church teaches that we should sit around and wait for this.

RM, True not overtly. However you must have experience the allusions to "being caught up" or, of the "rapture" in other sects? THE time is "now-near"! "Stand in holy places!" "Hurry, get the temple work done..." Then, on the other hand this little affects personl or Corporation-of-the-Church wealth building???

Sorry... but I have yet to see a prophet help someone with sexual addiction, child abuse, depression, bi-polar disorder, domestic violence, PTSD, mental health issues, or any number of challenges people face.

I think many a good church leader, bishop, Relief Society pres, YW pres, YM pres and so on has helped many people with many of these things in many quiet ways. I have witnessed it and even done it.

RM, Certainly they do as do all other responsible communitarians...

~dancer~

[/quote]

Hi Jason, You say:

One problem with you comments it that LDS leaders do teach more then this. Here, on this board, the extreme and odd things get emphasized. I think Pres. Hinckleys book on the Be's was mostly pretty good. LDS leaders talk and teach about intergrity, honesty, morals and other of these issues all the time. And other religous leaders do as well.

It appears as if LDSism is in league with most other mainstream, traditional churches, in that they all, to varrying degrees teach basically the same Fall & Redemption message. As well they all do about the 7 deadlies. Little difference...

Jason, i think what TD correctly states is true: LDS and other main-streamers DO NOT address issues that can in the least be considered moral from a political/social point of view. ie. global issues from warming to wars, povert, resource and income disparity, social justices on all fronts...

With good reason: They would lose their tax-privileges! The seperation of church & state serves a more evil than righteous purpose. Unfortunately the praying masses have been blinded from both sides to think of that policy as a divine-unction. Everything but! It is a license to corrupt and fraud with little accounability except to the demands of conscienced secular society that dares to question and challenge the priveleged. Be they government or ecclesiastic ...

I might have messed up this post format??? but, i hope you get my points, agreed with or not... Warm regards, Roger

[_JAK]

The same way generations before learned it. I took a sociology class one time that discussed families. One point that has stayed with me all these years is that a child who has no father in the home will find a father-figure, somewhere. It may be on the street corner, or it may be in the classroom, or in the church, or in the neighboring apartment, but children tend to seek out that which is needed. There are many ways of learning decency, integrity, etc... scouting programs, 4-H, church youth groups, Boys and Girls clubs, Camp Fire, ROTC, Big Brothers and Sisters, city-supported youth programs, sports programs, etc. These programs do a world of good, in quiet corners across the country. Do you hear much about them? No, the media is too busy reporting gang activities and celebrity stupidity. But they're there, and they're doing good things with children who have little if any support at home.

The family is still the ideal place to learn those attributes, but it isn't the only way to live. It doesn't take a stay at home mom and wage-earning father to accomplish your goal; it just takes 2 people who are committed to teaching their children to value those attributes, and to living their lives to mirror that teaching.

I've got 8 kids, all of which are testaments to 2 people's commitment to teaching them those attributes. I haven't been a stay at home mom since my youngest entered first grade, and yet all of my children are good upstanding citizens who are now raising another generation of good citizens.

And of course a mom is clearly the most objective/reliable one to evaluate her children.

If you have 8 kids, you violate the earth’s environment. The planet will not support such irresponsible reproduction long-term. A family of 8 children is hardly “ideal” in today’s world.

JAK

[_harmony]

And of course a mom is clearly the most objective/reliable one to evaluate her children.

Well, let's see: none of them is in jail, all of them are gainfully employed, all of them either graduated from college or are currently enrolled, all of them are respectful to their elders, their neighbors, and their country. Four of them served missions at their own expense, 6 of them are married, 5 of them have children, one of them is in the military. All of them pay their taxes, all of volunteer with the schools or with other community entities, all of them pay their debts.

What other criteria is needed?