Why they're MAD

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_wenglund
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Re: Why they're MAD

Post by _wenglund »

beastie wrote: Mormonism isn't just a religion, it's a life, a world-view, so when you flat out reject Mormonism, you have rejected THEM. I think this is why so many believers do not seem to be able to differentiate between criticizing the church and its leaders and criticizing the believer personally. They feel attacked when the church is criticized because they can't separate themselves from the church. So they attack back.


I have been trying to communicate this point for years. So, I am pleased to see that at least some people get it.

I wonder, though, if the critics see the same sensitivity in themselves--as a "culture" or group of critics, unbelievers, former members, or in terms of their current belief systems?

I have noticed over the years that criticism (including generic and non-personal) of certain criticism, or critics (particularly certain icons), or websites of critics, etc., tend to envoke no small level of defensiveness, protectivelness, and allegience. This occurs not only between the critics and the believing members who are counter-criticizing, but also between various faction of critics (as evinced by Vogel's recent experience on RFM).

Perhaps this is human nature, and a function of the way we humans may view the various types of relations (social, familial, intellectual, spiritual, etc.) we enter into--to one degree or another, it goes beyond simply feeling connected, to actually feeling apart of or sharing nature with the things we have relationships with. The relationships we develop, and things we tie ourselves to, become a part of us as well as we apart of them.

This, I believe, is important to understand when discussing with anyone about things involving those relationships. It may prove useful to take as much care and consideration in how one approaches criticism involving those relationships as one may take in discussing personal issues.

I think it also important to note that defensive reactions one may get when criticizing, may not just be about this sensativity to the relationship. It could be about the less than effective manner in which the criticism is delivered. I am not just referring to the blattant forms of belligerance and rancour, or other types of anti-social behavior, etc.. Sometimes it takes the form of talking and not really listening (when one is only willing to accept and respect their own point of view), presuming to know better what the person believes and says than the person themself, arrogance, condescention, and a noticable lack of charity, graciousness, empathy, and understanding, etc.. I know of whence I speak since I have recognized some of these traits in my own interactions, and I have seen how adversely it has affected others, even when my intent was otherwise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Sam Harris
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Re: Why they're MAD

Post by _Sam Harris »

beastie wrote:I feel like hitting myself on the head for not fully realizing this before. Tbone on RFM was speculating on why conversations with believers tend to get ugly, and I had an epiphany, which I will share here.

I've totally given up on discussing Mormonism with Mormons. With very rare exceptions (believers who are genuinely liberal, not the faux-liberals you see on internet LDS boards), it is just too personal not to get ugly. Exbelievers, out of the rest of the gentile world, know the church better than anyone else - and flat out rejected it. Mormonism isn't just a religion, it's a life, a world-view, so when you flat out reject Mormonism, you have rejected THEM. I think this is why so many believers do not seem to be able to differentiate between criticizing the church and its leaders and criticizing the believer personally. They feel attacked when the church is criticized because they can't separate themselves from the church. So they attack back.

Geez. I think believers admit this, in so many words. I do not know why it didn't finally sink in until today. When believers labeled my behavior ugly and attacking on MAD, I was confused, because I think I normally stick to the topic and had to put up with a lot of baloney from believers. But what I did that was so ugly was to point out the serious flaws in their BELIEFS, which feels the same as pointing out the serious flaws in THEM. That is also why people like Juliann seem to lose all reading comprehension when dealing with these issues - it's like how we react when we are personally criticized. It's almost impossible to "hear" any of it objectively, even if it is at least partly based in truth.

So the believers who lash out and feel justified in creating a board with LDS biased moderating have done so because of their inability to draw a firm boundary between who THEY are and the church. They are enmeshed with the church and feel attacked when the church is criticized.

It would be interesting, psychologically speaking, to figure out how this happens in Mormonism. Is it because it colors everything in your life as a youth? (I didn't grow up in the church so don't fully understand its childhood impact).


Beastie, you hit the nail on the head. I think that the vehemence that you see in the Mormon defense of their faith is very unique, but the self-identification that comes with person and religion is not. I mean, I get upset when people think I'm fundie because I'm evangelical. I think it's a religion thing. Many who believe in God, to an extent, internalize part of their religion's culture, and when you criticize that, you criticize them.

With the LDS faith, that entire faith dictates one's way of life, so yeah, when you start chipping at the facade, you're chipping not just at the Mormon hierarchy, you're chipping at individual people. And that is why I don't discuss my issues with my friends. They take it too personally (um, I love you...that has nothing to do with your church), and try to "fix" my problem. Sad thing is, it's not a problem for me anymore. I'm at peace where I am, it is my LDS friends (well, some) who cannot handle my not being LDS. They try, but I can see it's hard for them. I try to include them in my faith journey as best I can, but sometimes you cannot.

Perhaps the belief in a one true church or faith makes for a very painful disillusionment when someone starts to wipe away what you see as reality and replace it with something else.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

beastie wrote:It explains another phenomenon I noticed a long time ago, while a moderator at Z. On boards which allow for interactions between believer and nonbelievers, believers tend to engage in more outright misbehavior than nonbelievers. I don't think it has anything to do with a difference in moral tendencies or self-control, but rather because the nonbelievers normally aren't feeling personally attacked (except when they actually are).


Very true. And what is worse, the believers who attack feel that their behavior is ok, and justified! I once had a person tell me that as a Mormon, he had a right to judge me, it was his God-given right. Oh you know I went to town with that one.

Now my next speculation - is one differentiation between believers who know all the "stuff" and still believe and those who learned the "stuff" and lost belief that the exbeliever was always less personally enmeshed with Mormonism, and was able to "hear" criticism of the church without feeling personally attacked?


No, I don't think so. Else, why would the separation and the disillusionment be so painful? I think that for some, it may be a case of being more open to what they've learned, but also I think that timing is an issue as well. Who knows what is going on in the lives of each individual on their way out of the church? I also think that there are many who heard and understood, but on some level just buried that uneasiness, because it was simply easier to be where they are.

I've always thought about why it is that people follow a religious leader. I believe that it's because it's simply easier to have someone make the "big decisions" for you. And I've just started reading Conversations With God, and that is one of the things that the author claims God said, that people place another human above them as a spiritual leader, to keep from having to deal with the responsiblity of hearing and interpreting God's word for themselves. Intrigues me, that does.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_twinkie
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Post by _twinkie »

It's OK to call your own kid a brat, but nobody else better do it.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

“So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.” (Luther)

Uh-oh! I might be crossing the line to become a True UNbeliever. I had a dream that I saw Jesus in the sky and I figured it was some kind of projection trick done by EVs to scare people and never believed for a minute that it was the Mormon Jesus coming to sweep down the nations of the earth -- even though my patriarchal blessing said I would see that day. When I woke up, I thought, my goodness, I guess my unbelief in that kind of Jesus is quite strong, and if it did turn out to be true I'd be going to hell, but what the heck, it isn't true.

Anyway, I can remember being identified with Mormonism in the way you speak of, and it was before the days of the Internet and before I'd ever heard any anti arguments to speak of. Even after I'd left the church, and having some counseling for depression and problems, when my therapist suggested that Mormonism could be to blame for some of it I honestly didn't know what she was talking about and defended the church!
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

GIMR wrote:And I've just started reading Conversations With God, and that is one of the things that the author claims God said, that people place another human above them as a spiritual leader, to keep from having to deal with the responsiblity of hearing and interpreting God's word for themselves. Intrigues me, that does.


I just feel compelled to mention that the author of Conversations With God has admitted that he made it all up, but that doesn't mean the book doesn't have good insights.
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Re: Why they're MAD

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

wenglund wrote:
beastie wrote: Mormonism isn't just a religion, it's a life, a world-view, so when you flat out reject Mormonism, you have rejected THEM. I think this is why so many believers do not seem to be able to differentiate between criticizing the church and its leaders and criticizing the believer personally. They feel attacked when the church is criticized because they can't separate themselves from the church. So they attack back.


I have been trying to communicate this point for years. So, I am pleased to see that at least some people get it.

I wonder, though, if the critics see the same sensitivity in themselves--as a "culture" or group of critics, unbelievers, former members, or in terms of their current belief systems?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


No, not so much. I am definitely on the critic side, but I've heard so many insinuations (and outright accusations) that people only leave the church because of their personal flaws and that they are always in the wrong to do so that it doesn't hurt my feelings one little teeny tiny bit. In fact, I haven't taken offense at anything I've read on the internet for years now. Personal life is a little more challenge, of course, but no, if someone says all apostates are stupid it doesn't get a rise out of me.

I''ll just take the opportunity to say again that you should be concentrating your efforts to help on your fellow believers. They really need it so much more than we do. No offense :)
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Fore some reason this thread reminded me of a song.

Coggins might want to consider doing a parody ;o)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K77Uoi309k

DrSns: Wake up! It's late!
It's twenty minutes after eight
Everyone get up; it's time to go
Up and at 'em now
Come on; shake a leg
Have some juice and scrambled egg
On the floor and out the door
Let's get on our way.

Dot : Hey, watch out!
Yakko: What's the matter?
Dot : You almost knocked me off the ladder
Yakko: No I didn't
Dot : Yes you did; I almost fell
Yakko: Don't exaggerate
Dot : I'm not
Yakko: Yeah, right
Dot : Are you trying to pick a fight?
Yakko: Will you get out of my face?!
Dot : Well, you're always in my space
DrSns: Hey get off each other's case
Because we're trying to get along.

Wakko: I want pancakes
Or a waffle
This tastes awful
Is that all we've got?
Can't find my clothes
And I need to blow my nose
And my socks are full holes
And my shoelace has a knot.

Dot : That's my toothbrush
Yakko: No it's not
Dot : Well, it's sitting in my slot
Yakko: No it isn't; this is mine and that one's yours
Dot : Well, you're standing in my way
Yakko: Yeah, that's tough
DrSns: Alright now that's enough
Everybody get your stuff
Because we're going out the door.

DrSns: Every time we get into the car
It's so much work
It takes us twenty minutes
While you're driving me berserk
With your playing und your jumping
Und your running all about
When I finally get you inside
You always lock me out!

Dot : I'm mad, I'm mad
I'm really, really, really mad
You poked me with your elbow in my side
Yakko: No I didn't!
Dot : Yes you did
Yakko: Nuh-uh
Dot : You did
And I'm just a little kid
You're lying; don't deny it
Yakko: Oh, I'm gonna hit you
Dot : Yeah, just try it
DrSns: Will both of you be quiet
'Cause we're driving in a car!

Dot : Ow, he hit me!
Yakko: Ow, she bit me!
Dot : He said he's gonna "get me"
Yakko: No I didn't
Dot : Yes you did!
DrSns: Alright that's it; now I forbid
Either one of you to say another word!

Wakko: Are we there yet?
I'm tired.
I'm hungry.
How far?
My nose is snotty
Need to move my body
Gotta use the potty
Better stop the car.

Dot : Stop it!
Yakko: No, you stop it
DrSns: Why can't you both just drop it?
Dot : Well, he started it
Yakko: Oh, yeah, I'm really sure, uh-huh
Dot : Na-ah
Yakko: Uh-uh
Dot : It's your fault
Yakko: No it's not.
Your leg is in my spot
DrSns: Yakko you be quiet
Und that goes for you too, Dot!

DrSnS: Every time we take a trip
It's always just the same
With the fighting und the biting
Und the calling all those names
Then there's pushing und there's shoving
Und there's scratching on the neck
When we finally get to where we're going
Everyone's a wreck!

YW+D : Yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak yak!

Dot : I'm mad, I'm mad Wakko: Are we there yet?
I'm really, really, really mad I'm tired.
You poked me with your elbow in my side I'm hungry.
Yakko: No I didn't! How far?
Dot : Yes, you did, you did My nose is snotty
And I'm just a little kid Need to move my body
DrSns: Will both of you be quiet Got to use the potty
'Cause we're driving in a car! Better stop the car.

DrSns: We're here, we're here
Doesn't anybody want to give a cheer?
Yakko: You mean this is where we're all gonna spend the day?
Dot : At the circus?!
Wakko: Hey, guys, look! They got rides!
DrSns: Now you're satisfied?
Alright, everyone inside
And let's have some fun, okay?

YW+D : Yay!!!

Dot : I'm glad, I'm glad
What a really great time we had
Did you see those lions and those tigers
Weren't they neat?
DrSns: Are you happy now?
Dot : We are; thanks a lot
I'm sorry that we fought
From now on I'll get along
Yakko: That's alright, Dot; I was wrong
DrSns: Ah that's nice, now come along
Let's all get in the car.

Dot : You can take the seat you like
You're always so gallant
Yakko: Ah, thank you, Dot, but ladies first
You take the seat you want
DrSns: Everybody's happy now
We've had a real good day
Und now it's time to go back home
So let's be on our way.

Dot : You hit me
Yakko: No I didn't
Dot : Yes you did. Stop it!
Yakko: No, you stop it
Dot : Move your leg
Yakko: No, you move your leg
Dot : You started it
Yakko: No I didn't, you did
Dot : No I didn't, you did
Yakko: So what?
Dot : You always start it!
Yakko: Don't you cross that line!
Dot : You're not the boss of me!
Yakko: This is where the line is, right here!
Dot : Oh yeah? Since when? Get out of my face! I'm the boss here!
Yakko: Dr Scratchansniff, she started it!
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

beastie wrote:In retrospect, I realize I'm probably talking about True Believers in the Eric Hoffer sense, whose identities are so thoroughly enmeshed within the belief system that there can be no conception of self outside it, hence, the brain acts in an aggressively self protective manner when the belief system is attacked.


Which perfectly explains why Neo and Trinity had to shoot so many soldiers and cops.

As Morpheus explained, "Some people are so hopelessly dependent on the Matrix that they can never be free."
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Dr. Shades wrote:
beastie wrote:In retrospect, I realize I'm probably talking about True Believers in the Eric Hoffer sense, whose identities are so thoroughly enmeshed within the belief system that there can be no conception of self outside it, hence, the brain acts in an aggressively self protective manner when the belief system is attacked.


Which perfectly explains why Neo and Trinity had to shoot so many soldiers and cops.

As Morpheus explained, "Some people are so hopelessly dependent on the Matrix that they can never be free."


I can conceive of myself outside the church, but I don't see any advantage to it. On the one hand I would think it desireable to be a true believer in the sense that angels won't convince me to change my mind. Even the Bible indicates that this is desireable (Galations 1:8. Yet I see a possible conflict. I want others to be open enough to accept the restored gospel while yet hoping that those who have received the fulness of the restored gospel will not be led astray by the sophistries of men or devils. How precisely to find the proper balance, I do not know. Certainly one should be open to the good of other religions. I also think it vital to ask of God and be willing to follow His advice.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
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