Anyone reading the FairWiki?

[Anonymous]

This site is rapidly becoming my favorite site. It's so hilarious to seen something completely outlandish stated as if it's common knowledge or that nothing is wrong with it. It's so surreal.

My page of the day is:

http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Josep ... oung_women

A few quotes:

Helen Mar Kimball
Some people have concluded that Helen did have sexual relations with Joseph, which would have been proper considering that they were married with her consent and the consent of her parents.

What? A 14 year old and a dude in his 30s is proper??? Not to mention he guilted her and her family into it with automatic ticket to heaven bit. Dare I say, "coercion"?

Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages to young women may seem difficult to understand or explain today, but in his own time such age differences were not typically an obstacle to marriage. The plural marriages were unusual, to say the least; the younger ages of the brides were much less so. Critics do not provide this perspective because they wish to shock the audience and have them judge Joseph by the standards of the modern era, rather than his own time.

Unusual? Try wacko. Nuts. Coo coo for Coco Puffs. How about Three Stooges "Whu-wu-wu-wu-wu-wu-wu-wu Ar-Ruff Ruff" crazy? Unusual? That's like saying Scarlett Johansson's easy on the eyes. Kind of like saying the Grand Canyon's just a hole in ground. Unusual? What are they drinking....Snoop Dogg's bong water?

But seriously:

You know something, I'm willing to buy the whole "14 year olds can marry" thing. The thing that most critics seem to trip over is the fact that he's having polygamous marriages!! Who does he think he is? He was creating a harem! They're justifying his polygamy by saying that we should use the same perspective on marriage age that we do to the plural marriages.

I can almost let the age thing go (even though it's creepy and sick) as just one of those things that we've hopefully grown out of as a society, but polygamy is something that wasn't a part of normal 19th century America. I'm just going to have to hold him to the standards of the day and this day.

Edit: Spelling and fixing quotes.

[_Zakuska]

The age thing went out the window for me when I found out that 12-13-14 year old Jewish girls (Including mary the Mother of Jesus) after being instructed in the temple where encouraged to mary and procreate.

Isn't there a Christmas song "When Joseph was an old man, and old man was he."

[_Who Knows]

It's a combination of a few things that make it SHOCKING:

- Marrying multiple women
- Marrying teenage girls
- Marrying other mens wives
- Promising salvation to the girls families
- Lieing to his wife about it all

I believe that's what the critics find so SHOCKING. But nice try though FAIRwiki.

[_Bond...James Bond]

The age thing went out the window for me when I found out that 12-13-14 year old Jewish girls (Including mary the Mother of Jesus) after being instructed in the temple where encouraged to mary and procreate.

As I said, I can understand the marriage of young girls. It's the polygamy that get's lept over by apologist jumping to the much easier argument of age that is a pain. How can they defend his polygamy beyond "God says so"?

[_maklelan]

What? Jews are a relatively cohesive group? The Jews have been one of the most widespread peoples/religions in history. I cannot even begin to describe how false this statement is. Suffice to say, Jews can (or at least could) be found all around the Mediterrean World and the Ancient Near East, and of course have immigrated to America. Along the way they have been interbreeding. Jews have been mixing with whatever group they've come into contact with since they began dispersing. Do the words Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi mean anything to you?

So trying to link modern Asians and ancient Native Americans and wondering why modern Jewish DNA doesn't appear in the mix is really a stupid premise for trying to prove anything about the Book of Mormon, huh?

[_Bond...James Bond]

What? Jews are a relatively cohesive group? The Jews have been one of the most widespread peoples/religions in history. I cannot even begin to describe how false this statement is. Suffice to say, Jews can (or at least could) be found all around the Mediterrean World and the Ancient Near East, and of course have immigrated to America. Along the way they have been interbreeding. Jews have been mixing with whatever group they've come into contact with since they began dispersing. Do the words Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi mean anything to you?

So trying to link modern Asians and ancient Native Americans and wondering why modern Jewish DNA doesn't appear in the mix is really a stupid premise for trying to prove anything about the Book of Mormon, huh?

Of course the argument that Jewish DNA has disappeared into the Native American population is possible. Either way, my original statement had to do with the argument that Jews only marry Jews (or whatever the WikiFair page said).

[_Zakuska]

The age thing went out the window for me when I found out that 12-13-14 year old Jewish girls (Including mary the Mother of Jesus) after being instructed in the temple where encouraged to mary and procreate.

As I said, I can understand the marriage of young girls. It's the polygamy that get's lept over by apologist jumping to the much easier argument of age that is a pain. How can they defend his polygamy beyond "God says so"?

Well think about it... The question that the saducees had was quite intresting... "Who's wife shall she be in the ressurection?"

We know that Moses had 2 wives, yes its hard to prove concerency... but when they are ressurected, Is Moses going to have to choose between the two of them? There are lots of other examples in scripture of Multi marriages. In the ressurection whos will they be? Yes I know of the arguments of "In the ressurection they will not be married". So we don't need to go there.

You also can't deny the write up in Moses Law of the governing of Polygamous unions. We've had quite a few older widowed people in our ward who have double married like this. I think it just hits upon our Modern notions of posseiveness.

[_Who Knows]

What? Jews are a relatively cohesive group? The Jews have been one of the most widespread peoples/religions in history. I cannot even begin to describe how false this statement is. Suffice to say, Jews can (or at least could) be found all around the Mediterrean World and the Ancient Near East, and of course have immigrated to America. Along the way they have been interbreeding. Jews have been mixing with whatever group they've come into contact with since they began dispersing. Do the words Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi mean anything to you?

So trying to link modern Asians and ancient Native Americans and wondering why modern Jewish DNA doesn't appear in the mix is really a stupid premise for trying to prove anything about the Book of Mormon, huh?

Not quite - it's great for proving that the word 'principal' doesn't mean what we probably thought it meant.

[_The Dude]

Really, I am rather appalled at Prof. Peterson's over-the-top, inflammatory language in this article (or was that Stewart, who was using that "suicide bomber" bit?) Very nasty, in my opinion, and more evidence why FARMS Review is not credible as a so-called "academic" journal.

Good memory, Mister Scratch. It was David Stewart who first used the clever term "suicide bomber," and his use of that term was published in the illustrious FARMS Review (along with the rest of his pseudo-erudite DNA research).

Stewart repeated the mantra that "we don't know what Jewish DNA should look like" but at the same time he pointed to a number of reliable sources that do indentify founding Y chromosome markers among middle eastern and central asian Jewish groups. Except that they aren't exclusively Jewish. And they don't link to Native American markers unless you first go back in time >10,000 years to when the Native American/central Asian common ancestors separated. It's a very round-about way to say that Native Americans are related to Israelites, and has probably fooled every person who ever read his article into thinking there could still be a case for a hemispheric Book of Mormon model.

[Anonymous]

The hits just keep on coming:

http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Bankr ... te_in_Utah

Yes, Utah's personal bankruptcy rate is the highest in U.S. According to an August 2002 Associated Press article:[1]

Utah residents are more likely to file for bankruptcy than residents of any other state, according to a financial research organization.
During the year ending March 31 [2002], roughly one of every 35 Utah households filed for bankruptcy, according to the American Bankruptcy Institute, a Virginia-based research organization. That far outpaced the national average of one for every 69 households.

Twice as many bankruptcies as normal. Are we sure these people are being led by a Prophet of God? God needs to get James Cramer on the phone pronto. Boo yeah!

Some point to obvious factors: Utah's per-capita income ranks 45th in the nation. Its families, many of them part of the Mormon faith, are larger than those in other states. The job market is weak. The cost of living is relatively high.
The state is also the nation's youngest — the median age is 27.1, compared to 35.3 nationally — and its birth rate is the highest. That means fewer workers are supporting more people.

Blame the job market. Blame the cost of living. Blame the birth rate. Blame everything. Just don't blame the church for telling people living during a costly time to keep on popping out kids and paying tithing.

"Most of the time, the problem arises not because of wild consumerism, but because something really bad happens," said Darren Bush, an economist and law professor at the University of Utah.

Like being a member of church that charges admission for its most important ceremonies?

Counsel of LDS Church leaders
The advice and teaching of LDS general authorities has been consistent since the foundation of the Church: Latter-day Saints should get out of debt and stay out of debt. In October 2001 General Conference, President Gordon B. Hinckley taught:

The economy is particularly vulnerable. We have been counseled again and again concerning self-reliance, concerning debt, concerning thrift. So many of our people are heavily in debt for things that are not entirely necessary.

Like tithing?

When I was a young man, my father counseled me to build a modest home, sufficient for the needs of my family, and make it beautiful and attractive and pleasant and secure. He counseled me to pay off the mortgage as quickly as I could so that, come what may, there would be a roof over the heads of my wife and children. I was reared on that kind of doctrine. I urge you as members of this Church to get free of debt where possible and to have a little laid aside against a rainy day. We cannot provide against every contingency. But we can provide against many contingencies.[2]

Utah's high bankruptcy rate can be blamed, in part, on the failure of some Latter-day Saints to heed prophetic counsel.

Actually they are heeding prophetic counsel exactly. They're paying their tithe and having kids.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks also cautioned members of the Church against the lures of materialism and "get-rich-quick" schemes:

Some have charged that modern Latter-day Saints are peculiarly susceptible to the gospel of success and the theology of prosperity. According to this gospel, success in this world—particularly entrepreneurial success—is an essential ingredient of progress toward the celestial kingdom. According to this theology, success and prosperity are rewards for keeping the commandments, and a large home and an expensive car are marks of heavenly favor. Those who make this charge point to the apparent susceptibility of Utahns (predominantly Latter-day Saints) to the speculative proposals of various get-rich-quick artists. They claim that many Utahns are gullible and overeager for wealth.
Certainly, Utah has had many victims of speculative enterprises. For at least a decade there have been a succession of frauds worked by predominantly Mormon entrepreneurs upon predominantly Mormon victims. Stock manipulations; residential mortgage financings; gold, silver, diamonds, uranium, and document investments; pyramid schemes—all have taken their toll upon the faithful and gullible. Whether inherently too trusting or just naïvely overeager for a shortcut to the material prosperity some see as the badge of righteousness, some Latter-day Saints are apparently too vulnerable to the lure of sudden wealth.

Objective observers differ on whether Latter-day Saints are more susceptible to get-rich-quick proposals than other citizens. However that may be, it is disturbing that there is no clear evidence that Latter-day Saints are less susceptible. Men and women who have heard and taken to heart the scriptural warnings against materialism should not be vulnerable to the deceitfulness of riches and the extravagant blandishments of its promoters.[3]

Get-rich-quick schemes? Mormon gullibility? What hogwash. Let's cut this down to reality. LDS get married too young, have too many kids, and pay too much tithing. That's it.


Edit: I read this page 3 times and I'm almost certain that the word "tithing" never appears. Please someone prove me wrong and show that the apologists wrote tithing when it's an obvious contributor.