"Presentism" is Dealt a Staggering Blow

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_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Wow, this thread is chock-full of quotable quotes. From the top:

Mister Scratch wrote:Really, it seems to me that "presentism" was developed by historians as a means to achieving greater scholarly objectivity, whereas Mopologists want to apply it to morality.


A very, VERY insightful observation! I hadn't made the connection before, but now, thanks to you, it seems obvious.

Mister Scratch wrote:. . . I think that "Loquacious Lurker" is quite right when s/he says that when used by Mopologists, "presentism" is just a sneaky, barely veiled form of Moral Relativism, . . .


You probably mean that "anti-presentism" = "moral relativism" (where "presentism" = "moral absolutism"), but the point is a strong one and should be brought up whenever apologists try to go down that route.

Fortigurn wrote:But even presentism doesn't work for joseph Smith because it suggests his behavior was "normal" for his time and place. If his behavior was so normal, why did he get his ass kicked on a regular basis by his 19h century peers for being such a weirdo?


I started a thread some months back, relating Tal Bachman's point that, even if we're not supposed to judge Joseph Smith by the standards of today, the people of Joseph Smith's own day judged him harshly enough to kill him!

So, Joseph Smith would've had a much easier go of it nowadays that he did back then.

guy sajer wrote:In fact apologists often tend to hold God's annointed to even lower standards than they do the common man, an outcome rich with obvious irony.


I myself have noted this many times. Yet the apologists refuse to acknowledge the point or otherwise face it head-on.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Coggins7 wrote:The first oder of business Fort, is a shred of compelling historical evidene that Joseph Smith ever had sex with that girl at all. Then we can move on to the sociological questions.


For the sake of this particular argument, it isn't relevant whether or not he had sex with her. What is relevant is the LDS apologetic argument that even if he did, it would have been acceptable in his day and age.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Here's a link to the last Presentism thread for those interested:

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/discus ... c.php?t=81
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

The first oder of business Fort, is a shred of compelling historical evidene that Joseph Smith ever had sex with that girl at all. Then we can move on to the sociological questions.


Yes. Fort is making an error in correlation as I said nothing about marriage or sex with girls to whom one is not formally married. And yes, he will have to give evidence to that effect. However, his claim (a typical antiMormon claim) shows presentism in that what gets most people is the age difference (note Fort's 14 year old girl example).

It is to that end that I present (pun intended) this evidence of presentism in this context. To wit....

The cornerstone of statutory rape law has always been age of consent. While early English law set the age of consent at ten, the age was gradually raised over the years. In the nineteenth century, most states had set the age of consent at ten. A few states began by using twelve as the cutoff; Deleware set the age of consent at seven. Once a girl reached the age of consent, her protection from any aggressive advances by men were minimal. In most courts, it was, and still can be, extremely difficult to prove non-consent, without a showing a constant and physical resistance. During the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries the Women's Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) led a national lobbying effort to raise the age of consent. While WCTU's arguments were decidedly moralistic and conservative in tone and often embedded in efforts to help women avoid lives of prostitution, the organization was were successful in drawing national attention to the issue of rape. Most importantly, the WCTU focused on helping those who were unable to defend themselves. Melina McTigue, "Statutory Rape Law Reform in Nineteenth Century Maryland: An Analysis of Theory and Practical Change," (2002)


It is a fact that today in society and law, the standard age of consent is significantly higher than what it was in Joseph Smith' day. Therefore, to carp over the ages of some of the girls Joseph Smith was sealed to (in the context of the unproven claim that Joseph Smith actually had sex with them) is presentism.

Of course Fort and others are probably going to go off on a tangent about statutory rape, but the fact remains, presentism is found in their argument.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

In fact apologists often tend to hold God's annointed to even lower standards than they do the common man, an outcome rich with obvious irony.


I myself have noted this many times. Yet the apologists refuse to acknowledge the point or otherwise face it head-on.


Which principle is interesting for the obvious reason that, if accepted, would make God himself the worst offender of all (Sodom, Gomorrah, The Holocaust, The Black Plague, Cancer, starvation, poverty, all evil and suffering of whatever kind etc.) and we're left wtih nothing but rank Atheism, or, as its known by its alternate name, Anthropotheism.

But first of course, there's that little problem of showing that Joseph ever really had sexual relations with these specific kinds of plural wives. Until you provide some plausible evidence of that, this entire argument is just one great big rotating tautology.

Loran
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

Coggins7 wrote:The first oder of business Fort, is a shred of compelling historical evidene that Joseph Smith ever had sex with that girl at all.


This may not be historical evidence, but it is doctrinal evidence:

Jacob 2:30: "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

Ergo, polygamy was (supposedly) reinstituted by God to "raise up seed." You can't "raise up seed" without having sex.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

bcspace wrote:Yes. Fort is making an error in correlation as I said nothing about marriage or sex with girls to whom one is not formally married.


I know you didn't. I did.

And yes, he will have to give evidence to that effect.


No I don't, for the reason already given.

However, his claim (a typical antiMormon claim) shows presentism in that what gets most people is the age difference (note Fort's 14 year old girl example).

It is to that end that I present (pun intended) this evidence of presentism in this context. To wit....


To wit, nothing which actually addresses what I wrote.

It is a fact that today in society and law, the standard age of consent is significantly higher than what it was in Joseph Smith' day. Therefore, to carp over the ages of some of the girls Joseph Smith was sealed to (in the context of the unproven claim that Joseph Smith actually had sex with them) is presentism.


This doesn't actually address the issue I raised. The issue I raised is that LDS apologists claim that modern day objections to Smith as a married man having sex with a 14 year old girl to whom he was not formally married, and from whom there is no evidence of consent, is the imposition of present day morality and ethics onto an era in which morality and ethics were different.

The LDS apologist claim is that early 19th century North American culture would have raised no objections to Smith's conduct. I am waiting for the evidence for this claim.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

This may not be historical evidence, but it is doctrinal evidence:

Jacob 2:30: "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

Ergo, polygamy was (supposedly) reinstituted by God to "raise up seed." You can't "raise up seed" without having sex.


This isn't even a nice try Slim. Joseph's "spiritual" marriages, as understood at the time, had no such connotations. Not all plural marriage need imply procreation. entrane into the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, which a person cannot do without such a sealing, is purpose enough. Don't bother arguing plural marriage with me, as I accept it as a true principle within and under the the controlling influence of the Priesthood and the Spirit of God. That's not the question. The question about Joseph's marriage to such a young girl and his polyandrous marriages are the question, and the ball is in the critics court to come up with something other than pure assumption regarding any alleged sexual activity in those particular cases before we so much as begin discussion the sociological aspects of the matter vis a vis differing moral standards at different cultural moments.
_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Coggins7 wrote:Joseph's "spiritual" marriages, as understood at the time, had no such connotations.


Evidence please.

That's not the question. The question about Joseph's marriage to such a young girl and his polyandrous marriages are the question, and the ball is in the critics court to come up with something other than pure assumption regarding any alleged sexual activity in those particular cases before we so much as begin discussion the sociological aspects of the matter vis a vis differing moral standards at different cultural moments.


This doesn't actually address the issue I raised. The issue I raised is that LDS apologists claim that modern day objections to Smith as a married man having sex with a 14 year old girl to whom he was not formally married, and from whom there is no evidence of consent, is the imposition of present day morality and ethics onto an era in which morality and ethics were different.

Let me spell it out again:

* The LDS apologist claim is that early 19th century North American culture would have raised no objections to Smith's conduct. I am waiting for the evidence for this claim.
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Nero? Caligula? Pol Pot? Stalin? Mao?


These are poor examples. All of these men's were considered evil by everyone except the people they brainwashed. The general flow of the argument is also something of a stretch. There is undoubtedly a moral absolute, but on top of this moral absolute are built a set of cultural expectations. The Mormon apologists seem to be arguing that polygamy and marriageable ages fall outside the realm of morality, and may rather be classified as cultural conditioning. In this case, presentism would apply only to that which is cultural, not to that which is moral.

Alternatively, one could argue that different generations are given different amounts of "light," and that we can judge someone only by the light they have been given. So things like slaveholding, marrying young girls, and polygamy become decidedly less punishable when they occur in a time or place where such things are "acceptable." This argument fails where God seems to ask his people to revert to a lesser-light mode, as in the case of Joseph's polygamy. If monogamy is superior to polygamy (as indeed the principles of love and fairness seem to demand), then why is God having Joseph-- who lived in a greater-light society-- revert back to a lesser-light practice? Moreover, in a society where marrying young girls was acceptable but not universal, why would God have Joseph pursue the lesser-light option rather than the greater-light option? Joseph does not seem to have been under any societal pressure to marry these girls; the only pressure came from God and angels with flaming swords.

So the second argument, it seems, faces insurmountable obstacles. Mormons then must pursue the first: that is, that polygamy and marrying young girls are actually morally neutral, and only our cultural conditioning leads us to believe otherwise. But this still leaves us in some doubt as to why God would command it so vehemently that Emma is threatened with destruction and Joseph Smith with death, and girls' entire families are promised exaltation if they agree.

Perhaps an option that doesn't rely on presentism would make better sense of the data. For example, maybe polygamy is actually a morally superior state. In this case society is simply wrong, and the LDS church's current commandment to live monogamously is simply a temporary accommodation with the culture. Or, on the other hand, maybe polygamy was a terrible mistake from the beginning, and the Manifesto was God's way of course-correcting. Both of these options have a more honest ring to them than the presentist defenses offered above; they at least take into account the vigor with which polygamy was pursued-- as doctrine, not as mere cultural practice.

It would seem to me that the principles of love and equality make polygamy, if not the worst of sins, at least morally less desirable than monogamy. While Brigham Young's "sister-wives" seem to have gotten along reasonably well, the success-stories are counter-balanced by tales of misery or-- in the case of more stoic women-- at least hints of discontentment. Polygamy seems to me degrading to the female partners. I cannot see how it could be either morally neutral or-- heaven forbid-- morally superior to monogamy. I see only one coherent way out of this for the reasonable Latter-day Saint, and that is that Joseph Smith is a man and the church a human institution, and that both therefore are prone to make mistakes, but this needn't make them any less true.

As for the question of what was acceptable in the United States in the 1820's and 30's, consider the following references. They seem to place the legal marriageable age at 12, but the actual age most girls got married at 16-20 (see the third reference).

http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC1 ... 0&as_brr=1
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC5 ... 0&as_brr=1
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC0 ... 0&as_brr=1
http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC2 ... 0&as_brr=1

-CK
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