Why So Few Faithful?

[_maklelan]

No it's not. It may get you in, but know just as well as God that you're not worthy to hold it. You would have to lie to get it renewed. You openly oppose the teachings of the church.

No, I openly oppose the stupidity of church leaders, now and in the past. You need to look at the TR questions again, Mak. There's nothing in there that says I have to revere leaders, past or present, that I have to put Joseph Smith or any other prophet on a pedestal and ignore his character, that I have to worship him or any other prophet. This is still Christ's church, and as a member of it, you are out of line. You have no stewardship over me, and you are not qualified by stewardship or proximity to call me to repentence, which is one of the things that makes me doubt your story. You've no more been in ward leadership than Vegas has. If you had been, you'd know you have stepped over the line into judging that which is not yours to judge. You are not worthy to judge my worthiness, because you are not my bishop. You are not worthy to judge my honesty, because you hold no stewardship over me. And you've never seen me oppose the teachings of the church. I oppose the teachings of men, not the teachings of God. That you cannot tell the difference tells me a lot about your lack of both perception and personal revelation.

You call upon the same "you're not allowed to judge me!" argument as all the stupid freshmen at BYU that get their feelings hurt. You'd never get past a TR interview if you ever told them how you really feel about church leadership. Sustaining them is a crucial part of that interview.

I've given the interview several times, and yes, I have been in church leadership. You ought to read Elder Oak's talk about judging. It will correct your misconceptions about when it's ok to judge and when it's not. The fact that I am not your bishop has absolutely nothing to do at all with my observation that you are unworthy to hold a TR.

I have seen you flatly oppose the church's teachings on numerous occasions, including this one. You do not sustain your leaders, and you do so proudly. You've said before that you keep your identity a secret so your bishop doesn't find out just how you really feel.

I don't understand how you can present relatively cogent arguments one second and then make statements as ludicrous as above.

[_asbestosman]

And Mak... one more time: I'm as LDS as you are. My TR is as good as yours. My testimony and faithfulness is as deep as yours. That I don't revere what you revere is not a fault or a problem; it's simply a different worldview.

I sense miscommunication here. So let me be direct (go ahead, ban me for badgering you). Do you believe that temple ordinances are necessary to prepare to live in God's presence? If not, then one might say that from your perspective your TR is as good as anyone else's because gets one into a temple that is not necessary for salvation.

What do you mean by testimony and faithfulness? If you are only talking about core things you share belief in with Maklelan, then that would not necessarily imply that you support the general authorities as the only men with authoity to direct the church which is the only church with the authority to perform saving ordinances. So, one might say, from your perspective you are telling the truth. However, it certainly would not be interpreted in the sense a TBM would generally intend. If this were the case, perhaps you would justify it by comparing it to leaders who allegedly stretched the truth about polygamy.

[_Fortigurn]

I was browsing the threads here last week and couldn't help but wonder why there are so few faithful LDS people frequenting this board.

Because it isn't faith promoting, and it asks the kind of questions many LDS do not seem to want to face.

[_Mary]

Mak, I really enjoy your posts, and would hope that you start some more discussions. They are always
interesting.

The thread on the Spalding/Rigdon authorship claims, indicate that this site is more than capable of hosting
a scholarly discussion and can attract the posters who know their stuff. (Dale, Dan, Arthur Vanick)

I'm not sure that DCP, or Juliann would post over here - they're busy people, and seem to be backing off internet
discussion boards, including Mad, in general.

Who would you like to see posting over here?
I find that most LDS (like Wade) who are reasonably secure in their beliefs will post over here as occassion permits.

Mary

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Mak, from your # 1 post:

There are very intelligent people here who have experience in many areas, but there are so few real investigations into anything incredibly relevant. I think that that lack of real discussion that is of value to both Mormons and non is a cause for so few LDS posters. The other cause, in my opinion, would be the antagonism toward, and lack of support for, opinions that are not in line with those of the proprietors and most outspoken posters on this board. Those outspoken people can often spoil a decent thread for others and reduce a poster's desire to respond.

Thanks for the compliment ;-) "...experience in many areas..." what might you have in mind? Professions, hobbies, theology, history, adventures, skill expertise...vague?? What do you consider "...incredibly relevant" to what?

I think you and i had a 'thing' a week or so ago, and ya left me hanging in the air...???

I think GAZ zeroed in quite accurately: Generally, LDS avoid interacting if there's any chance of "dissenssion". That is considered to be, "of-the-wrong-spirit". Passivity is a "virtue" highly encouraged in LDSism, generally speaking. There are exceptions of course. Eh, Harmony? Luv ya Gal!

Mak, respectfully Bro, yer harangues with the above metioned person of my affection, hardly fit the parameters you suggested in yer original post... Put something on the table... Warm regards, Roger

[_jayneedoe]

. . . (go ahead, ban me for badgering you).

Is this paranoia lingering from your time spent at MAD?

Jaynee

[_Yoda]

Here is a list of the current temple recommend questions asked:

Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
Do you live the law of chastity?
Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
Are you a full-tithe payer?
Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
If you have previously received your temple endowment:Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

Who are we to say that Harmony cannot answer in the affirmative to these questions?

Also....when did Harmony ever say that she was using an alias to hide her identity from her bishop? I think that Plutarch made some accusations to her in that vein, but she refuted it. I remember Harmony stating on another thread that her Church leaders were very aware of her problems with Church history, etc.

I believe that the reason that Harmony is posting anonymously here is for the same reason I am, and many women post anonymously on the Internet. It's for safety concerns. When I first began posting online, I was naiive, and would post under my real name. We ended up with an unfortunate situation with a stalker. Since that time, I have always used an alias.

Jersey Girl and many other women here have adapted aliases for the same reason.

[_Fortigurn]

I have to say maklelan, from where I'm sitting as an outsider, both harmony and liz have a point. Those questions for the Temple Recommend aren't much of an issue for even a borderline Mormon. This is the most pointed section:

Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

For a given value of 'sustain', I'm sure harmony can reply in the affirmative with a clear conscience.

[_harmony]

Here is a list of the current temple recommend questions asked:

Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
Do you live the law of chastity?
Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
Are you a full-tithe payer?
Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
If you have previously received your temple endowment:Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

Who are we to say that Harmony cannot answer in the affirmative to these questions?

Also....when did Harmony ever say that she was using an alias to hide her identity from her bishop? I think that Plutarch made some accusations to her in that vein, but she refuted it. I remember Harmony stating on another thread that her Church leaders were very aware of her problems with Church history, etc.

I believe that the reason that Harmony is posting anonymously here is for the same reason I am, and many women post anonymously on the Internet. It's for safety concerns. When I first began posting online, I was naiive, and would post under my real name. We ended up with an unfortunate situation with a stalker. Since that time, I have always used an alias.

Jersey Girl and many other women here have adapted aliases for the same reason.

I'm looking at that list, and failing to find anything that says I have to love, honor, support, or worship Joseph Smith or any other prophet. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to blindly support every word that comes out of church headquarters. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to support polygamy, the priesthood ban, or any other policy or doctrine that offends me. I'm looking and failing to find anything that says I have to respect baseless arguments, faulty assumptions, cowardly reports, or closed financial books.

Now can we get back to the topic of this thread? Mak, you do this a lot. You start a thread, and then derail it because you hate that everyone can post on your threads. You attack the poster, not the message. You asked why LDS posters don't post here. I gave several reasons why I think that is the case. What else do you have to offer, except more personal attacks on me?

[_asbestosman]

. . . (go ahead, ban me for badgering you).

Is this paranoia lingering from your time spent at MAD?

No, it's just my strange sense of humor.