Mister Scratch wrote:Conversely, I would be very interested in seeing a TBM supply a "mathematical proof" which demonstrates that the Church is true.
God doesn't work that way.
So why the unfair burden on falsification? Easy. The church provides more happiness than any other approach and also seems to work as it indicates. You would need something very powerful to take away my happiness--happiness from an approach where the claims appear to be verified through personal experience.
In other words, logic does not really count for as much as you claim it does.
One little thing. I hate to be nit-picky, but do you really think garments are expensive? They cost about 3.50 per piece and I'd say they are about as well made as any other clothing sold in stores. Nothings' really very well made compared to manufacturing standards of the past. Of course, I can understand you being annoyed at having spent good money on something only to have to throw them away once you no longer believed.
I'm not sure what could make me lose my faith. However, I doubt any of the history stuff could do it. I've been studying "church skeletons" my entire adult life and I'm still a believer.
I had my "trial by fire" many years ago and I've never doubted the truthfulness of the gospel since that experience. But because of what I went through, I can empathize with those who lose their faith or who struggle with doubt or to live the standards.
VegasRefugee wrote:I often reflect upon what helped me normalize my worldview and leave the incorrect worldview of Mormonism behind. I can cite books by Sagan mostly as the catalyst that led me into rational thought, but honestly the change was along time coming before that.
I'm currently 27 and the church left me when I was 25. Upon entering school the need for a rational outlook was made imperative. In particular Mike Norton and Shades were instrumental along with RFM, in regards to an outlet for the overwhelming anger I felt at the time. The anger is still there but its focused and honed.
Above all else I see my willingness to sit down and read the "other side" of the debate coming from the two year wake up call that was beaten into me during my mission. Slogging 12 hours a day knocking on doors in Minnesota just to be constantly told that I was in a cult both hinders and strengthens ones willingness to hold onto a false worldview. Pouring over FARMS documents and SHIELDS articles left me with an empty feeling inside. After reading the documents and discussing the matter with former seminary teachers of mine I knew it was all a lie. I just needed to make the leap into rational thought and act upon what I had learned.
Life it seemed changed the day I threw my garments away. Even after I made it known to my wife that I was not going back to church I kept them for some stupd reason. The day I dumped the laundry bag full of poorly made (yet expensive) white garments into the garbage was one of the happiest days of my life. It felt like I had sheared off shackles. Literally.
But hands down, the willingness to ditch the kooky worldview of Mormonism hinged on acting upon what I had learned. The more I relearned about episodes in church history the more I could get out of it. it was as if I could see the actual history of the church, not the vanilla faith-promoting ludicrous nature of the candy coated accounts. I could see the early church members as real people, not the cardboard cutouts portrayed by official church history that had been sanitized.
So to the believers I ask you what it would take for you to leave the church. What fact made evident would it take for you to ditch your faith? What fact would make your world change?
Since Mormons are to be persuaded or taught only by the Holy Ghost and not take the word without question from our prophets, apostles, or any other member of the Church as to what any scripture may mean, I don't know of a thing that would tempt me to leave the Church of Jesus Christ short of an actual visit from our God the Eternal Father Himself. And yet if God were to tell me that the Mormon religion was wrong, I would have to ask him how much He knows about it and if He would like to know more. I say that only because I just don't know of a better religion or any teaching that is as merciful and kind that Mormon teachings.
I have never found a teaching in the Mormon religion that doesn't depict the kind or type of God that I could worship. And besides I was told the Mormon religion was true I would be somewhat anxious about denying the Holy Ghost.
Why don't we discuss what you believe is false and let all of us Mormons think about what the Holy Spirit may testify about what you believe is NOT true.
gramps wrote:Lots of ways will work. Have you tried any other ways to see if they would work even better?
If not, why not?
I'm not ignoring your question, but there are some personal things I'd rather not share--even behind a mask of anonymity. If you wish to see that as a tacit admission of me being a coward or knowing I'm wrong, so be it. I don't care what you think.
It can't be because you think the doctrine is logical or how the spirit works is logical, or is it?
Why not? I do not claim to fully understand how the spirit works, but I see no reason to suspect it isn't logical. I only suspect that I cannot now fully comprehend such things. I do, however, think that we can know enough for the present time.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
grampa75 wrote: Why don't we discuss what you believe is false and let all of us Mormons think about what the Holy Spirit may testify about what you believe is NOT true.
Here's a thread where we constructed a list of arguments against the church. Consider this a partial list of the things I believe are not true about the Church.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
grampa75 wrote:...if God were to tell me that the Mormon religion was wrong, I would have to ask him how much He knows about it and if He would like to know more.
Hey, thanks for the new sigline - it's a beaut!
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
asbestosman wrote:The church provides more happiness than any other approach and also seems to work as it indicates.
More happiness for whom? And you know this how? Personal experience? If you are BIC, how do you know this, even accounting for personal experience?
More happiness for me and my family. Yes, from personal experience. The last question is one I refuse to answer. Call it a tacit admission of defeat if you will. I don't care.
What do you mean by "work as it indictes"?
You plant the seed and it grows. You learn many things from the scriptures, the prophets, and so on. You find happiness.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO