Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

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_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

beastie wrote:
I briefly scanned the thread you linked to. Who was "Free Thinker"? I recall some controversy about Free Thinker but not in detail.


Free Thinker was Dan Peterson.


But Daniel posted on ZLMB as himself. I'd also like to know something about "Brent" and what his leanings are. The reason I ask (and I don't mean to drive your thread off topic) is because I never understood who "Brent" and "Brant" were and what their role was in apologetics.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Gaz's scripture citation leads me to conclude he is saying that the church is justified in teaching this bigotry. I suspect that many "True Believers" would have this reaction, even if they are too PC to admit it. Yes, but, they think, apostates really are all these terrible things!! How can we pretend otherwise? Especially when the LORD has said so?

And thus we see bigotry completely inculcated within the culture. The Lord said so! So be it.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

But Daniel posted on ZLMB as himself. I'd also like to know something about "Brent" and what his leanings are. The reason I ask (and I don't mean to drive your thread off topic) is because I never understood who "Brent" and "Brant" were and what their role was in apologetics.


It depends on the time frame. Sometimes DCP posted as himself, other times he posted as Free Thinker. He'd often leave the board but then come back, and one of the times he came back as Free Thinker. It was supposed to be a big secret that he was Dan, but everyone (that I knew) knew.

Brent is Brent Metcalfe. He is a well respected scholar in the field of Mormon history, and has put together some notable works of various authors, such as New Approaches to the Book of Mormon.

http://mormonscripturestudies.com/

Brant is Brant Gardner, who specializes in the Mesoamerican/Book of Mormon connection. I do not believe he has published any works yet, although he's working on a multi-volume work. He has a website devoted to his Book of Mormon apologia. In his youth, he obtained a master's degree specializing in Mesoamerica, If I recall correctly, and worked on his PhD but did not complete it. However, his career has been in the field of computers, or something like that.

http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/commentary.htm
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_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Thank you, beastie. I'll hush up now.

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Thank you, beastie. I'll hush up now.


No problem, glad to clarify.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Mercury
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Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _Mercury »

maklelan wrote:
beastie wrote:It is obvious a cycle of negativity exists between exmormons and Mormons (speaking in generalities, of course, individual exceptions to any rule exist, but, in general, seem to prove the rule by standing out as an exception). Some believers even express the desire to stop this cycle of negativity, as do some exbelievers. So where does the cycle begin?

The cycle begins in teachings by church leaders that encourage bigotry against those who have lost their faith in the LDS church.


That begins the cycle? What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?


What kind of stupid circular logic question is that? You might as well have asked who began a rape...the rapist or the raped.
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Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _maklelan »

VegasRefugee wrote:
maklelan wrote:
beastie wrote:It is obvious a cycle of negativity exists between exmormons and Mormons (speaking in generalities, of course, individual exceptions to any rule exist, but, in general, seem to prove the rule by standing out as an exception). Some believers even express the desire to stop this cycle of negativity, as do some exbelievers. So where does the cycle begin?

The cycle begins in teachings by church leaders that encourage bigotry against those who have lost their faith in the LDS church.


That begins the cycle? What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?


What kind of stupid circular logic question is that? You might as well have asked who began a rape...the rapist or the raped.


Are you asking me or beastie?
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_Mercury
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Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _Mercury »

maklelan wrote:
VegasRefugee wrote:What kind of stupid circular logic question is that? You might as well have asked who began a rape...the rapist or the raped.


Are you asking me or beastie?


I think your both wrong. Its late though and I need to get ready for tomorrow.
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Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _maklelan »

beastie wrote:The cycle begins in teachings by church leaders that encourage bigotry against those who have lost their faith in the LDS church. The majority of exmormons have been exposed to many years, often decades, of these teachings - hence, the moment they lose faith, they know what the believers who remain faithful "think" and "say" about them (with some exceptions). After all, we heard it for years.


So how do you propose the situation be remedied, especially considering the fact that the majority of apostates will continue to attack the church irrespective of our stance?

I believe you explain below that

It is bigotry to make offensive generalizations about an entire group of individuals.


And you feel your "organization" is above this?

Vegas wrote:Insanity: Making the same mistake over and over again and expecting different results
Mormonism: Paying, Praying and Obeying repeatedly and expecting different results


I don't have time to go collect all the times that the non-Mormons on this board have utilized a gross generalization or caricature of the church in an attempt to belittle all who subscribe to our belief system. I believe this is the pot calling the kettle black. Shades posted an essay that contains this bit:

Generally, an apologist is easily able to spot the logical flaws and special pleading that exist in rival faiths, but seems completely unable to apply the same analysis to his own tenets. Thus, an apologist will sometimes refute the arguments of a religious opponent, and then use the very same arguments to support their own position.


Perhaps we're both sitting in our little protective bubbles ridiculing each other for being hypocrites, but the non-Mormon posters on this board participate in a living, breathing organization that has its own defense mechanisms just as well as we do. The Recovery Board, for instance, serves to help scab over the wounds of the dull blade of Mormonism. They are replete with their own dogmas, fail-safes and assumptions, just as you accuse us. Is there any bigotry taking place over there? Am I alone in thinking that's a stupid question? Mormonism must be wrapped up in a nice neat little package for easy digestion and refutation. We're all led by "blind faith," and we all can't think objectively, and our scholarship is a laughing stock to everyone on the planet except for ourselves, and we believe anything that anyone says that's faith promoting, and we all really know the church isn't true, and blah, blah, blah. Accepting that there are intricacies and details of the situations that muddy the water a little and make a clean conclusion hard to achieve is precluded by the very nature of the organization. And why? Well, for self-preservation, naturally.
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_Mary
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Re: Calling on LDS to repent of bigotry

Post by _Mary »

maklelan wrote:
beastie wrote:It is obvious a cycle of negativity exists between exmormons and Mormons (speaking in generalities, of course, individual exceptions to any rule exist, but, in general, seem to prove the rule by standing out as an exception). Some believers even express the desire to stop this cycle of negativity, as do some exbelievers. So where does the cycle begin?

The cycle begins in teachings by church leaders that encourage bigotry against those who have lost their faith in the LDS church.


That begins the cycle? What came first, the apostate who attacked the church or the church leader who attacked the apostate?



Mak, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. I am off to work and havn't read the rest of the thread, so maybe someone has already addressed it. If so, please feel free to ignore.

I don't think it is just a matter of apostates 'attacking' the church, and it really depends what you mean by attacking. I don't doubt that there are some who feel that it was so damaging to their own psyche that they want to see it's utter destruction,...I don't know,....maybe if we were in their shoes...we could see where they are coming from.... That's why I have done my best to understand and accept those who are still really, really angry about the whole thing.

Maybe there's a view that can be considered that goes along the line of 'apostates' have a goal of 'defending' their courses of action...'leaving the church', by pointing out some of the flaws in LDS culture, doctrine, history and thinking that they percieve in the organisation, and they do this against a back-drop of a very negative attitude towards them from those who were once their friends for all the reasons that Beastie outlined in her opening post.

We all know the kind of mindset that is encouraged. Once you're in...that's it...no turning back,....and if you do...then you're on a one way ticket to perdition.
I think it's fair to say that apostates are treated, within the church as far more threatening than adulterers and murderers.
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