Juliann, Sophistry, and Rape

[_Fortigurn]

What Elder Scott seems to be implying is that, yes, perhaps the wearing of "short skirts" makes the victim "responsible" to a degree. (An implication which I find reprehensible.) juliann wants to claim that this sort of argument is "nasty," "cheap," and "misogynistic," but the sad fact is that this is precisely what has been taught by Church leaders.

I think it's a stretch to go from that grossly unenlightened comment by Scott to 'the Brethren do indeed blame rape victims for their own plight', and 'this is precisely what has been taught by Church leaders'.

[_Dr. Shades]

My question is why those people who like to defame others won't just admit what they are doing instead of thinking up transparent excuses. It can't be healthy to deny what you do.

Coming from juliann, of all people, that quote is the ultimate irony!

[_Fortigurn]

In case you need another example of insensitivity from the Brethren, Mak, here is Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone, in one of my all time faves:

Another problem: an overweight girl from Ogden went to see her bishop. In the purity and goodness of charity, trying to help the girl, he counseled her that it might be a good idea to lose a few pounds. Pitifully heartbroken, she went home and told her father. It had cankered her soul. The father, of course, negative toward the Church all of his life, waiting for something like this, sprung like a cat on the bishop's back, and they came down to see me and wanted their memberships transferred out of the bishop's ward. I asked them why, because I didn't know all this background, and they said, "Well, our bishop suggested to our daughter that she might lose a few pounds and make herself a little more attractive." Now I want you to know that I defended that great bishop. I said to this family. "You are wrong. That sweet bishop, out of purity and love for your daughter, felt and did that which he was impressed to do. I am sure it was a message from God to your daughter, and she let it canker her soul. The strange thing is that she was probably up in her bedroom the night before praying, 'Heavenly Father, I am lonely. I need someone. Please help me. Help me to find someone so I won't be so lonely.' " And yet oftentimes we are offended because a sweet bishop gives us some instruction which is hard for us to live. Ensign, May 1975, pp. 66-68.

Notice how he apparently thinks he can read her mind, and how, once again, "it's her own fault" that she is lonely. I think it is an enormous stretch indeed to label this bishop "sweet."

I think everyone in that particular situation overreacted very badly. It reads like a melodrama. I wouldn't describe that bishop as 'sweet' or 'great', however. If he had been either, he would have managed to put the message over without reducing the girl to a forlorn pile of emotional rubble.

[_maklelan]

Notice how he apparently thinks he can read her mind, and how, once again, "it's her own fault" that she is lonely. I think it is an enormous stretch indeed to label this bishop "sweet."

Are you really quoting him about it being "her fault," or are you just reading his mind for him? Instead of it being "her fault," why can't it be an opportunity for her to be proactive about the situation? Certainly an individual can be shown how to makes things better without feeling like something is their "fault."

[_Mister Scratch]

What Elder Scott seems to be implying is that, yes, perhaps the wearing of "short skirts" makes the victim "responsible" to a degree. (An implication which I find reprehensible.) juliann wants to claim that this sort of argument is "nasty," "cheap," and "misogynistic," but the sad fact is that this is precisely what has been taught by Church leaders.

I think it's a stretch to go from that grossly unenlightened comment by Scott to 'the Brethren do indeed blame rape victims for their own plight', and 'this is precisely what has been taught by Church leaders'.

I would be inclined to agree with you Fort, except that the bulk of the commentary by the Brethren on this and related subjects would seem to indicate that, yes, this is indeed how they feel on the matter. I am referring to a whole web of teachings that encompasses stuff as seemingly tangential as the "thou shalt wear only one pair of earrings," to Elder Oaks's, "walking pornography" talk, to Elder McConkie's "better dead than unchaste" talk, to BKP's "little factory" talk, etc., etc. Further, the insistence on control over girls and young women in the Church would seem to bear out my reading. Have you not heard of the "chewed up gum" lesson? Or the "licked cupcake" lesson?

[_Dr. Shades]

In case you need another example of insensitivity from the Brethren, Mak, here is Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone, in one of my all time faves:

Another problem: an overweight girl from Ogden went to see her bishop. In the purity and goodness of charity, trying to help the girl, he counseled her that it might be a good idea to lose a few pounds.

Let's face it: The bishop was probably right! :-)

[_Mister Scratch]

Notice how he apparently thinks he can read her mind, and how, once again, "it's her own fault" that she is lonely. I think it is an enormous stretch indeed to label this bishop "sweet."

Are you really quoting him about it being "her fault," or are you just reading his mind for him? Instead of it being "her fault," why can't it be an opportunity for her to be proactive about the situation?

For that matter, why can't the young men in the ward be persuaded to be more "Reubenesque" in their taste in women?

Certainly an individual can be shown how to makes things better without feeling like something is their "fault."

How would you have suggested that the bishop handle the situation?

Also, I notice that you completely disregarded my earlier response to your post....

[_Mister Scratch]

In case you need another example of insensitivity from the Brethren, Mak, here is Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone, in one of my all time faves:

Another problem: an overweight girl from Ogden went to see her bishop. In the purity and goodness of charity, trying to help the girl, he counseled her that it might be a good idea to lose a few pounds.

Let's face it: The bishop was probably right! :-)

Shade---tsk tsk tsk! Not very nice! Anyways, we have no way of knowing what the girls' actual problem was, since Elder Featherstone sets us up to think it was her weight from the outset. It's implied that she was complaining of loneliness, or perhaps male attention, but does that justify a crack about her weight? Methinks not.

[Guest]

Yes. Tomorrow, you get into your car and drive to the store. It's raining outside. You know perfectly well that rain increases the likelihood of an accident, and yet you fire up your engine anyhow. As you turn at the stop light, you are t-boned by a reckless driver. You chose to drove on the rainy day. So is the accident partially your fault?

This is totally unrelated. First, a reckless driver running a red has nothing to do with rain. Second, you can't just conjure up a situation that has a few loose parallels and insist that the essences of the situations are identical. If it's drizzling and I get hit by a car that spins out of control it's nobody's fault, it's an accident. If my wife tells me not to go driving in a blizzard and I do it anyway because I feel like it I will have to take responsibility for whatever happens. In a perfect world we would all be able to do what we want without having to factor in the bad decisions of others, but if I am fully aware that I am entering a situation that is highly risky I am partially responsible for taking that risk, because nobody thinks we live in a perfect world. I could dream up a million situations that show that making decisions gives you responsibility, just like you could think up a million that do the opposite, but that's not gonna win any arguments.

I find it enormously troubling, Mak, that you would ever see such behavior as "inevitable."

Which behavior do you mean?

See your post above. Viz:

I've always understood this text to refer to women who put themselves in places and states of mind that make inevitable that kind of behavior (like women who go to college parties and get drunk, or constantly speak about such things and verbally provoke and encourage that kind of behavior).

(emphasis added)

Am I misreading this? Or are you saying that the "inevitable" consequence of going to a college party and getting drunk is rape? Please clarify this for me, Mak. It sounds as if you are saying that men are "hardwired" to rape. Or am I wrong?

What I am saying is (frat guys) + (college girls) + (alcohol) at some point or another = rape. Rather than throw myself into the middle of that equation I can see the risk and decide not to. If I go ahead anyway I have decided that I am willing to take the risk.

[_asbestosman]

For that matter, why can't the young men in the ward be persuaded to be more "Reubenesque" in their taste in women?

I hear there are some African cultures where fat is considered attractive. I think it has something to do with the fact that fat people tend to actually eat food in some of those countries. It's like a mark of wealth or something.

Fat girls can find boys--they just need to find some fat ones. But seriously, I never though being fat automatically disqualified one from social interaction. Last I checked things like a sense of humor, common interests, and those sort of things were more important.