CaliforniaKid's interesting thread on the Book of Abraham facsimiles

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Re: CaliforniaKid's interesting thread on the Book of Abraham facsimile

Post by _maklelan »

Runtu wrote:Over on the board that must not be named, CaliforniaKid has opened a thread about the obviously problematic "translation" Joseph Smith made of the Book of Abraham facsimiles. In response, there have been some obvious red herrings and some honest admissions from TBMs that it is indeed problematic. The interesting post for me is David Bokovoy's statement that the obvious error in translation does not mean the book isn't inspired.

If the argument here is that Joseph Smith could not “translate” ancient Egyptian and by extension ancient reformed Egyptian in a traditional manner, then I whole-heartedly agree.

If the argument, however, is that Joseph Smith could not produce an inspired “translation” I.e. “interpretation” (see “translate” no. 6 in Noah Webster’s American Dictionary of the English Language; 1828), then I couldn’t disagree more.


To me, this is pretty much throwing in the towel on the Book of Abraham. Essentially, he's telling us that "wrong but inspired" is good enough.


What he's saying is that you demand Joseph Smith's "translation" be judged on your terms, which ignore several factors, instead of on the terms within which he called the work a translation. Look at every text he claims to have ever "translated." The Book of Mormon he "translated" without even looking at the text. The Book of Moses he "translated" right into the Bible without a text. It wasn't even there but he "translated" it. The entire JST is a "translation" but relies on no text except for the modern English. He used "translation" to mean something entirely foreign to today's concept of translation in every single instance, and yet you demand that be the definition with which his "translation" be judged be entirely different from his own. That's what David is trying to say, but nobody seems to want to address that. They'd rather just tell him what he means for him.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Post by _Sethbag »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Schryver's back?

My thread is now descending into obfuscation and testimony-time. I think I'll bow out shortly. Those who have ears to hear have probably already heard enough. As for the rest, well, nothing will move them. I should have put this in pundits so I could at least carry on a halfway rational conversation with Bokovoy about it without being shouted down by the mob.

-CK


You should do that. It won't be limited to Bokovoy, unfortunately, because Her Amun has pundit status as well. So you'll be treated to more explanations that include that the reason Egyptologists say that the figure is Isis, while Joseph Smith said it was King Pharoah, is that it was actually King Pharoah wearing an Isis costume. If that isn't the worst apologetics you've ever seen on a given topic, I simply cannot imagine what is.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Trinity
_Emeritus
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:36 pm

Post by _Trinity »

Sethbag wrote:
CaliforniaKid wrote:Schryver's back?

My thread is now descending into obfuscation and testimony-time. I think I'll bow out shortly. Those who have ears to hear have probably already heard enough. As for the rest, well, nothing will move them. I should have put this in pundits so I could at least carry on a halfway rational conversation with Bokovoy about it without being shouted down by the mob.

-CK


You should do that. It won't be limited to Bokovoy, unfortunately, because Her Amun has pundit status as well. So you'll be treated to more explanations that include that the reason Egyptologists say that the figure is Isis, while Joseph Smith said it was King Pharoah, is that it was actually King Pharoah wearing an Isis costume. If that isn't the worst apologetics you've ever seen on a given topic, I simply cannot imagine what is.


So Pharaoh isn't transgendered. He is a crossdresser. LOL!
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: CaliforniaKid's interesting thread on the Book of Abraham facsimile

Post by _Runtu »

maklelan wrote:What he's saying is that you demand Joseph Smith's "translation" be judged on your terms, which ignore several factors, instead of on the terms within which he called the work a translation. Look at every text he claims to have ever "translated." The Book of Mormon he "translated" without even looking at the text. The Book of Moses he "translated" right into the Bible without a text. It wasn't even there but he "translated" it. The entire JST is a "translation" but relies on no text except for the modern English. He used "translation" to mean something entirely foreign to today's concept of translation in every single instance, and yet you demand that be the definition with which his "translation" be judged be entirely different from his own. That's what David is trying to say, but nobody seems to want to address that. They'd rather just tell him what he means for him.


I know what he's doing, and I agree with you. I'm not trying to tell David what he means anymore than you are. Joseph indeed had a loose definition of translation, but if we take him at his word, then the plates, the papyri, and the Bible itself were merely props or catalysts for inspiration. Why bother calling them translations at all?
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: CaliforniaKid's interesting thread on the Book of Abraham facsimile

Post by _Sethbag »

maklelan wrote:What he's saying is that you demand Joseph Smith's "translation" be judged on your terms, which ignore several factors, instead of on the terms within which he called the work a translation. Look at every text he claims to have ever "translated." The Book of Mormon he "translated" without even looking at the text. The Book of Moses he "translated" right into the Bible without a text. It wasn't even there but he "translated" it. The entire JST is a "translation" but relies on no text except for the modern English. He used "translation" to mean something entirely foreign to today's concept of translation in every single instance, and yet you demand that be the definition with which his "translation" be judged be entirely different from his own. That's what David is trying to say, but nobody seems to want to address that. They'd rather just tell him what he means for him.


Every single example you point out actually just demonstrates ever more clearly just how egregiously Joseph Smith was just making it all up. It doesn't help Book of Abraham apologetics, it just reminds everyone reading the thread how bad some of the other apologetics are as well.

Joseph Smith said that the characters above these figures' heads meant something particular, and they actually mean something else. There is no definition of "translation" other than "translation: to pull something out of your ass" which can possibly explain this uncomfortable fact.

Mak, I've got to tell you, that you are simply unwilling to consider the idea that Joseph Smith made this up and was wrong. You will always be stuck in a mental world of obfuscation and rationalization until you are willing to face all of the possibilities, and take them seriously.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Post by _Runtu »

I just lost a lot of respect for Her Amun. His response to Sethbag's last post was jaw-dropping in its contempt. It's really disappointing to see him in essence calling Sethbag a crybaby for saying that bad Book of Abraham apologetics had a lot to do with his loss of faith in the church. I think that's one of the beatitudes, isn't it, to sneer at apostates?
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

What an amazing thread. Thanks for pointing it out. It is one of those archetypal threads, isn't it? It demonstrates in such a clear fashion, all in one handy bundle, the severe problems in LDS apologetics, and how, in the end, the only thing that matters is the testimony. And they wonder why critics often parody this phenomenon.

After all these years out of the church, after several years of dealing with LDS apologia, it still confounds me when I read this type of thread and see the way believers can work around this problem. It brings to mind the words of Eric Hoffer:

81 The effectiveness of a doctrine does not come from its meaning but from its certitude. No doctrine however profound and sublime will be effective unless it is presented as the embodiment of the one and only truth. It must be the one word from which all things are and all things speak. Crude absurdities, trivial nonsense and sublime truths are equally potent in readying people for self-sacrifice if they are accepted as the sole, eternal truth.

It is obvious, therefore, that in order to be effective a doctrine must not be understood, but rather has to be believed in. We can be absolutely certain only about things we do not understand. A doctrine that is understood is shorn of its strength. Once we understand a thing, it is as if it had originated in us. And, clearly, those who are asked to renounce the self and sacrifice it cannot see eternal certitude in anything which originates in the self. The fact that they understand a thing fully impairs its validity and certitude in their eyes.

The devout are always urged to seek the absolute truth with their hearts and not their minds. “It is the heart which is conscious of God, not the reason.” Rudolph Hess, when swearing in the entire Nazi party in 1934, exhorted his hearers: “Do not seek Adolf Hitler with your brains: all of you will find him with the strength of your hearts.” When a movement begins to rationalize its doctrine and make it intelligible, it is a sign that its dynamic span is over; that it is primarily interested in stability. For, as will be shown later, the stability of a regime requires the allegiance of the intellectuals, and it is to win them rather than to foster self-sacrifice in the masses that doctrine is made intelligible.

If a doctrine is not unintelligible, it has to be vague; and if neither unintelligible or vague, it has to be unverifiable. One has to get to heaven or the distant future to determine the truth of an effective doctrine. When some part of a doctrine is relatively simple, there is a tendency among the faithful to complicate and obscure it. Simple words are made pregnant with meaning and made to look like symbols in a secret message. There is thus an illiterate air about the most literate true believer. He seems to use words as if he were ignorant of their true meaning. Hence, too, his taste for quibbling, hair-splitting and scholastic tortuousness.



“So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.” (Luther) To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason. It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs. The fanatical Japanese in Brazil refused to believe for four years the evidence of Japan’s defeat. The fanatical communist refuses to believe any unfavorable report or evidence about Russia, nor will he be disillusioned by seeing with his own eyes that the cruel misery inside the Soviet promise land.

It is the true believers ability to “shut his eyes and stop his ears” to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy. He cannot be frightened by danger nor disheartened by obstacles nor baffled by contradictions because he denies their existence. Strength of faith, as Bergson pointed out, manifests itself not in moving mountains but in not seeing mountains to move. And it is the certitude of his infallible doctrine that renders the true believer impervious to the uncertainties, surprises and the unpleasant realities of the world around him.

Thus the effectiveness of a doctrine should not be judged by its profundity, sublimity or the validity of the truths it embodies, but by how thoroughly it insulates the individual from his self and the world as it is. What Pascal said of an effective religion is true of any effective doctrine: it must be “contrary to nature, to common sense, and to pleasure”.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Re: CaliforniaKid's interesting thread on the Book of Abraham facsimile

Post by _Fortigurn »

maklelan wrote:What he's saying is that you demand Joseph Smith's "translation" be judged on your terms, which ignore several factors, instead of on the terms within which he called the work a translation. Look at every text he claims to have ever "translated." The Book of Mormon he "translated" without even looking at the text. The Book of Moses he "translated" right into the Bible without a text. It wasn't even there but he "translated" it. The entire JST is a "translation" but relies on no text except for the modern English.


The problem is that none of this constitutes what we mean by 'translation', and there's no evidence for what you say here:

He used "translation" to mean something entirely foreign to today's concept of translation in every single instance...


So he shouldn't have used the word 'translation'. But he did. He knew what it meant, and as far as he was concerned he was translating. That's what he thought he was doing. So he claims he was translating, and you say that he was using the word in a different sense. But there's no evidence that he thought he was using it in another sense.

You redefine the word 'translation', and then put this new definition in Smith's mouth, claiming it's what he meant all along. Redefining English words just to fit your theology is clear evidence of ad hoc rationalization.
Lazy research debunked: bcspace x 4 | maklelan x 3 | Coggins7 x 5 (by Mr. Coffee x5) | grampa75 x 1 | whyme x 2 | rcrocket x 2 | Kerry Shirts x 1 | Enuma Elish x 1|
_mentalgymnast

Re: CaliforniaKid's interesting thread on the Book of Abraham facsimile

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Runtu wrote:To me, this is pretty much throwing in the towel on the Book of Abraham. Essentially, he's telling us that "wrong but inspired" is good enough.


MG: before this thread progresses any farther it might be well to do some more reading. I'd be interested in the comments that a few of the erudite scholars here have in regards to Barney's essay.

Go here:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... chapid=168

Semitic adoption of Egyptian concepts is an interesting twist on things.

Enjoy!

Regards,
MG
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Hi MG,

I agree that Kevin Barney's essay is an interesting twist, and I should add that he's one of my favorite LDS scholars. However, he is almost certainly on the wrong track here. Are you able to view the thread on MAD? We have discussed Semitic adaptation, catalyst, and a few other wild and wooly theories there, and I feel I have offered compelling reasons to consider them all failures. The Semitic adaptation theory, for example, fails to explain why Joseph Smith claimed that certain characters on Facsimile 3 give us the name Shulem when in fact they give us the name Osiris-Hor. It also has no explanatory power when it comes to the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the erroneous translations proffered therein. I think Barney relies too much on John Gee's and Hugh Nibley's rationalizations (there's a missing roll, the characters on the translation manuscript are merely decorative, the scribes produced the EAG by means of their own uninspired speculations, etc.). Gee unfortunately has prostituted his credibility to a conventional translation theory, apparently sometimes going so far as to intentionally misrepresent the evidence in order to make his case.

-CK
Post Reply