I'm working on copying comments I've made elsewhere on this topic. Give me some time. Yes, start anywhere you wish. I do think it would be best to stick with Sodom/Genesis and not delve into Leviticus. I think that Leviticus would warrant it's own separate thread. Just my 2 cents.
Take your time by all means, there's no rush. I don't see the need to get into Leviticus either, as yet. I'm basically interested in seeing the evidence that Genesis 19:5 doesn't refer to homosexual acts (specifically, that the word translated 'know' here doesn't refer to sexual intercourse). I'm wondering if you're going to present me with the usual arguments, or something new.
Me too! You could start by posting Gen 19:5 and offering your interpretation? My replies won't come fast so just check the thread when you feel like it. I think including Leviticus in this would muck up the thread.
Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Jersey Girl wrote:You could start by posting Gen 19:5 and offering your interpretation?
I don't know what I could add to this:
. I'm basically interested in seeing the evidence that Genesis 19:5 doesn't refer to homosexual acts (specifically, that the word translated 'know' here doesn't refer to sexual intercourse).
Genesis 19: 5 They shouted to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!”
That's Genesis 19:5, and that's how it reads to me.
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I'm hoping that going in, you agree that in interpreting Biblical material, we're working with translations of translations of translations with no original manuscript. I'll be using KJV and cheating by copy and pasting previous remarks I've made elsewhere.
As you no doubt know, was written in Hebrew.
Genesis 19:5
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
know Hebrew "yada`yaw-dah' ":
a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) (as follow):--acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-)awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be (ig-)norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have (knowledge), (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have (understanding), X will be, wist, wit, wot.
yda`yed-ah'
In Aramaic: "yda`yed-ah'" :
certify, know, make known, teach
What else suggests homosexual activity in the story? Anything?
Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Following should be the full text of Genesis 19 KJV
Genesis 19
1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
14And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:
19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
26But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
27And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
28And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.
29And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
30And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
I'm hoping that going in, you agree that in interpreting Biblical material, we're working with translations of translations of translations with no original manuscript.
Yes.
I'll be using KJV and cheating by copy and pasting previous remarks I've made elsewhere.
I object to the KJV because:
* It's shockingly dated * The language is misleading
Since we're looking at the non-English texts anyway, this shouldn't be an issue.
As you no doubt know, was written in Hebrew.
Yes.
know Hebrew "yada`yaw-dah' ":
a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) (as follow):--acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-)awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be (ig-)norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have (knowledge), (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + [b]lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have (understanding), X will be, wist, wit, wot. yda`yed-ah'
Could you provide your source please? Is this Strong's, Young's, Cruden's, or what? I'd prefer that BDB be used, for obvious reasons. I've highlighted the relevant portion in this definition.
In Aramaic: "yda`yed-ah'" :
certify, know, make known, teach
We're talking about the Hebrew.
What else suggests homosexual activity in the story? Anything?
Verses 7-8, as I said.
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* The homosexual behaviour of the Sodomites was not the only reason for their destruction, but it was certainly one reason among other evils. This is not a specific condemnation of 'gays', but it is a specific condemnation of homosexual behaviour (why people cannot draw a distinction between these two, I do not know).
Homosexuality is not mentioned. In fact, the only thing it says about Sodom and Gomorrah, it mentions "an abomination". However, given the times, there were only, what? 500 some-odd abominations? Defining this particular one as homosexuality without further information is criminal.
Fortigurn wrote:* You've missed the point of Genesis 19:5 - it isn't saying 'All the men, no wait, all the men, women and children as well'. The phrase 'both young and old' qualifies 'All the men'. Only the men came, and it wasn't necessarily every single man in Sodom.
In the NIV, yes, you are correct. They did make it clearer according to their understandings. But since most Mormons don't even know there are other translations of the Bible, I kept my focus on the KJV. Which, if you read it again, is misleading. It does say exactly what you wrote and I addressed that in the original post.
Fortigurn wrote:* There's no ambiguity in the phrase 'that we may know them'. The meaning 'have sex with' is the only meaning within the semantic range of the word which makes sense in this context. It doesn't say 'So we can get to know them', or 'So we can find out if they're spies', and Lot clearly interpreted their words as a reference to aberrant sexual behaviour.
Again, I addressed this in the original post. Genesis 19 is the only place of the nearly 1000 instances of "know" in which it is not readily clear from context what the word was intended as.
Fortigurn wrote:* Lot's offer of his daughters is both sarcastic and offensive. Firstly they were married (as everyone in the situation knows), and thus not virgins, but his point is that they're virgins from the point of view of the anal sex which the men are demanding. Secondly his derisive offer of women rather than men explicitly attacks their sexual behaviour as aberrant. That they did not take this as a conciliatory gesture is clear from the fact that Lot's words enraged them, and they swore to do more to Lot than they intended to do to the angels (a clear indication that their self-described intentions towards the angels were violent and were certainly not going to be consensual).
A. His daughters were engaged to be married. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that before. There is a slight difference between "married" and "engaged to be married". . . one that I think is fairly obvious.
B. Even if they were planning violence, I think it is extremely misleading to assume that included rape. They were in a war zone, for love's sake. If two completely strange people walked onto a US base during war time, I know for a fact that they would be given one chance to identify themselves and then they would be shot.
It's common sense, man. You don't let your enemy into your stronghold.
As I said, I don't think there is enough evidence either way, however, based on the information found in the Genesis tale, I think the evidence is weighted heavily towards "finding out if they were spies".
Ah, that's a problem. Sources need to be verified. Try BDB instead.
If verses 7 and 8 suggest the potential or desire for homosexual activity...why didn't Lot offer his son in laws instead of his daughters?
As I said:
* Lot's offer of his daughters is both sarcastic and offensive. Firstly they were married (as everyone in the situation knows), and thus not virgins, but his point is that they're virgins from the point of view of the anal sex which the men are demanding. Secondly his derisive offer of women rather than men explicitly attacks their sexual behaviour as aberrant. That they did not take this as a conciliatory gesture is clear from the fact that Lot's words enraged them, and they swore to do more to Lot than they intended to do to the angels (a clear indication that their self-described intentions towards the angels were violent and were certainly not going to be consensual).
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jersey Girl wrote:Another question, if verses 7 and 8 suggest the potential or desire for homosexual activity on the part of the "men"...
When Lot offers his daughters why does he say this:
"and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"
He didn't say that:
Genesis 19: 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never had sexual relations with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do to them whatever you please.
This is an excellent example of why to avoid the KJV. You're exegeting the English.
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