gramps wrote:That is why I think a pantheon of Christ figures works well. One to help you better sit beneath trees and not step on ants. One to better inspire you towards political action through civil obedience, etc.
Christ does it all for me. That's what sets him apart from the others in my view. There's nothing useless in his teaching.
I agree that the principle works and "reflects... [an] accurate understanding of the human psyche," without the tricks and "legal loopholes."
But only when properly applied.
Could you explain what you mean by "only when properly applied?" I think we are getting to the crux of the discussion here now.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil... Adrian Beverland
gramps wrote:Could you explain what you mean by "only when properly applied?" I think we are getting to the crux of the discussion here now.
There have been plenty of inspirational leaders who did nothing good for human society. Some did great harm.
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gramps wrote:Could you explain what you mean by "only when properly applied?" I think we are getting to the crux of the discussion here now.
There have been plenty of inspirational leaders who did nothing good for human society. Some did great harm.
Right. So how does one know without looking back with hindsight, which will do good and which will do even "great harm?"
Ah well, that depends entirely on your frame of reference. It could be that only with hindsight was it possible to identify the fact that the mass starvations and slaughters carried out by Mao Tze Tung were wrong. It could also be that a tiny few enlightened individuals thought at the time 'Hey wait a minute, this doesn't look right'.
I guess some would say that the Christian message has also inspired some to do great harm.
The Christian message? Or various interpretations of the Christian message? Find me all the harm Christ performed in his life, and we'll talk.
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How about epistomology? The whole of Mormon epistomology hinges on the assertion that objective truths (including the truth of Mormonism) can be "known" via spiritual witness (feelings).
The notion that objective truths can be known via feelings is demonstrably false.
Worst argument?
Any argument that quotes the Bible to disprove Mormonism. Using one set of myths to dispel another set of myths is not particularly effective in my opinion.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
guy sajer wrote:Best argument? Hmmm, there are so many.
How about epistomology? The whole of Mormon epistomology hinges on the assertion that objective truths (including the truth of Mormonism) can be "known" via spiritual witness (feelings).
The notion that objective truths can be known via feelings is demonstrably false.
Well said.
Worst argument?
Any argument that quotes the Bible to disprove Mormonism. Using one set of myths to dispel another set of myths is not particularly effective in my opinion.
It's completely effective for the Christian against the Mormon, since both are operating within the same presuppositionalist paradigm regarding the validity of the Bible. In a similar way, it's equally effective for the non-Christian against the Mormon, since the downfall of the Bible removes the very foundation of the Book of Mormon. You might find the Bible more useful against Mormons than you think.
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guy sajer wrote:Best argument? Hmmm, there are so many.
How about epistomology? The whole of Mormon epistomology hinges on the assertion that objective truths (including the truth of Mormonism) can be "known" via spiritual witness (feelings).
The notion that objective truths can be known via feelings is demonstrably false.
Well said.
Worst argument?
Any argument that quotes the Bible to disprove Mormonism. Using one set of myths to dispel another set of myths is not particularly effective in my opinion.
It's completely effective for the Christian against the Mormon, since both are operating within the same presuppositionalist paradigm regarding the validity of the Bible. In a similar way, it's equally effective for the non-Christian against the Mormon, since the downfall of the Bible removes the very foundation of the Book of Mormon. You might find the Bible more useful against Mormons than you think.
Yes, of course you are correct. I was thinking in terms of what would be effective for me.
Is there anything, any argument, that would convince me Mormonism is true?
Short of a visit from God himself, I can think of nothing. I am more certain about this as I've been certain about anything else in my life.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
guy sajer wrote:Best argument? Hmmm, there are so many.
How about epistomology? The whole of Mormon epistomology hinges on the assertion that objective truths (including the truth of Mormonism) can be "known" via spiritual witness (feelings).
The notion that objective truths can be known via feelings is demonstrably false.
Well said.
Worst argument?
Any argument that quotes the Bible to disprove Mormonism. Using one set of myths to dispel another set of myths is not particularly effective in my opinion.
It's completely effective for the Christian against the Mormon, since both are operating within the same presuppositionalist paradigm regarding the validity of the Bible. In a similar way, it's equally effective for the non-Christian against the Mormon, since the downfall of the Bible removes the very foundation of the Book of Mormon. You might find the Bible more useful against Mormons than you think.
Yes, of course you are correct. I was thinking in terms of what would be effective for me.
Is there anything, any argument, that would convince me Mormonism is true?
Short of a visit from God himself, I can think of nothing. I am more certain about this as I've been certain about anything else in my life.
I have to agree with you here, Guy Sajer. Nothing short of a visit from God could convince me Mormonism is true, and if that were to happen, I might just tell him to send me to hell then because I'm not interested in worshiping a God who is so screwed up that Mormonism is the best he can do.
The thing I'm the most sure of at this moment is that Mormonism isn't true. I know it's false ten times more than I ever knew it was true, and believe me, I "knew" it was true for many years. In the instant I admitted to myself Joseph Smith lied and that the church was a fraud, I felt more clear-headed than I've ever felt in my life. I'd never go back to being that foggy-brained Mormon girl I used to be.
guy sajer wrote:Is there anything, any argument, that would convince me Mormonism is true?
Short of a visit from God himself, I can think of nothing. I am more certain about this as I've been certain about anything else in my life.
At this point, I'm not even sure a visit from God himself would work for me. I'd be inclined to turn myself in to the nearest psych hospital if heavenly visitors started visiting me.
As to damning arguments against the church, I just can't seem to get past the character of Joseph Smith. He was a hooligan, repeatedly proven to lie when the "need" presented itself. The issues build on top of each other to the point where a reasonable person would be wrong to trust Joseph and anything that came out of his mouth, no matter how sincere or genuine he may appear to be. And a reasonable man would wonder why God would choose such an untrustworthy human to be the filter of such a critical message to the masses.
It is the cumulation of the issues that are the tipping point. One on its own may not be so damaging. But try combining the Book of Abraham so-called translations with the enormous amount of deceit practiced with polygamy and Joseph comes out smelling like a stinker. Kinderhooks and treasure-seeking....they all point back to a Joseph with a highly honed survival instinct at the sacrifice of honesty, integrity and high-principled character.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008