truth dancer wrote:Or if the prophet said to trek across the United States even though three of my children may die, I would have done it.
Or if the prophet commanded me to marry multiple women I would have done it.
Or if the prophet said to pay tithing even though my family will suffer, I would have done it.
Or it the prophet said I need to give all that I have to the church, I would have done it.
Or if the prophet said I need to kill myself rather than disclose the tokens, I would have done it.
I think there are a lot of folks in the church who would do whatever the Lord, through his mouthpiece, commanded.
~dancer~
There are many such TBMs in my family and circle of LDS friends with this level of faith in LDS leaders. I never fit in with this level of obedience in my TBM days but it's proclaimed to be the belief of many I talk to. There is a very good thread at MAD going about Tal's comment that I recommend reading. What Tal said was sure to provoke outrage from LDS but I think his comment strikes a nerve because deep down they know the mission of Islamic extremists is no different than all the behavior defended as Godly in the Bible and Book of Mormon. "Whatever God commands is right, even if we don't understand" is how TBMs justify immoral behavior. They know when they condemn Islamic fundamentalists who are willing to suicide bomb to wipe the wicked Westerners off the earth, that they are forced to look at the same behavior in the Old Testament that they accept as Godly. If you look at the apologists on MAD in this thread about Tal's profound statement, they are digging themselves into a hole. I would love to see their recent statements in the next thread
where they defend Joseph Smith's polygamy, Abraham sacrificing Issac, or murdering Gentiles in the name of God etc.
I was discussing Islam with my LDS friends one day and many of them mentioned how troubling it is to hear the mission of their faith and how the suicide bombings seem so similar to Biblical acts commanded by God. They recognized the parallels between being God's chosen in the LDS church and those we condemn right now.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
grayskull wrote:There is no precendent to suggest that modern-day Mormon terrorism at the command of a priesthood leader is likely, or better, more likely to happen than comparable acts being committed by a random assortment of normal people from other walks of life out of peer pressure, the promise of money, love, or other noteriaty.
MMM?
power, money, etc? no, the ultimate factor controlling people to be suicide bombers is hatred of others and RELIGION
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Analytics wrote:4- Tal Bachman is getting some flak for saying that he would have committed an act of terrorism if he would have been commanded to do so. That is the attitude my mission presidents wanted missionaries to have. I was clearly and repeatedly taught to always obey God, and that “whether by my own voice, or the voice of my servants, it is the same.” I was taught that when an angel commanded Abraham to murder his son, that Abraham took the correct course of action by obeying. If somebody takes seriously what the church does in fact teach, then there is only one answer: if you are commanded to commit an act of terrorism, you should in fact do so. Believers who contemplatively read the Mormon scriptures ask themselves, “What if an angel commanded me to murder innocent people? Would I be as obedient as Abraham was?”
Was what Tal said inconsistent with the loyalty oaths taken in the endowment ceremony? No.
Yes it was. There is nothing in said oath that implies anything like commiting an act of terrosim. I can tell you for certain there is/was never a time in my life where I would follow such a command. If it came I would be certian that the one who gave it was not of God.
VegasRefugee wrote:no, the ultimate factor controlling people to be suicide bombers is hatred of others and RELIGION
Suicide bombing as we know it was pioneered by and at least until very recently most often commited for secular reasons. Look up the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka. And that doesn't even take into account the sociopolitical motives that influence the "religious" attackers.
Yes it was. There is nothing in said oath that implies anything like commiting an act of terrosim. I can tell you for certain there is/was never a time in my life where I would follow such a command. If it came I would be certian that the one who gave it was not of God.
Are you saying you would disobey the prophet of the Lord if he said he received a revelation directly from God to kill an evil person?
Personally, I would take being a suicide bomber over killing my own child...(think Abraham), but then again there is Moses (along with lots of men) who slaughtered children and elderly and mothers and fathers...raped the young unmarried girls.
I'm guessing you are aware that there are many members who would willingly do whatever asked by the Lord.... give everything to the church, even their very lives if necessary!
My guess.... there were plenty of LDS men who never thought they would be required/commanded to break the hearts of their wives, by sleeping with young girls and women.
Just saying, the whole obedience thing is pretty strong in the LDS church.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Analytics wrote:4- Tal Bachman is getting some flak for saying that he would have committed an act of terrorism if he would have been commanded to do so. That is the attitude my mission presidents wanted missionaries to have. I was clearly and repeatedly taught to always obey God, and that “whether by my own voice, or the voice of my servants, it is the same.” I was taught that when an angel commanded Abraham to murder his son, that Abraham took the correct course of action by obeying. If somebody takes seriously what the church does in fact teach, then there is only one answer: if you are commanded to commit an act of terrorism, you should in fact do so. Believers who contemplatively read the Mormon scriptures ask themselves, “What if an angel commanded me to murder innocent people? Would I be as obedient as Abraham was?”
Was what Tal said inconsistent with the loyalty oaths taken in the endowment ceremony? No.
I think the following is an example of what Rollo is talking about.
Joseph F. Smith, the sixth president of the church, once admitted that he was about to stab a man with his pocket knife if he even expressed approval of the murder of Joseph Smith. Apostle Abraham H. Cannon recorded the following in his journal under the date of December 6, 1889:
About 4:30 p.m. this meeting adjourned and was followed by a meeting of Presidents Woodruff, Cannon and Smith and Bros. Lyman and Grant.... Bro. Joseph F. Smith was traveling some years ago near Carthage when he met a man who said he had just arrived five minutes too late to see the Smiths killed. Instantly a dark cloud seemed to overshadow Bro. Smith and he asked how this man looked upon the deed. Bro. S. was oppressed by a most horrible feeling as he waited for a reply. After a brief pause the man answered, "Just as I have always looked upon it—that it was a d—d cold-blooded murder." The cloud immediately lifted from Bro. Smith and he found that he had his open pocket knife grasped in his hand in his pocket, and he believes that had this man given his approval to that murder of the prophets he would have immediately struck him to the heart
VegasRefugee wrote:no, the ultimate factor controlling people to be suicide bombers is hatred of others and RELIGION
Suicide bombing as we know it was pioneered by and at least until very recently most often commited for secular reasons. Look up the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka. And that doesn't even take into account the sociopolitical motives that influence the "religious" attackers.
the TT fit under the political reasoning I gave. Try thinking up a response before just blindly disagreeing with me.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Analytics wrote:4- Tal Bachman is getting some flak for saying that he would have committed an act of terrorism if he would have been commanded to do so. That is the attitude my mission presidents wanted missionaries to have. I was clearly and repeatedly taught to always obey God, and that “whether by my own voice, or the voice of my servants, it is the same.” I was taught that when an angel commanded Abraham to murder his son, that Abraham took the correct course of action by obeying. If somebody takes seriously what the church does in fact teach, then there is only one answer: if you are commanded to commit an act of terrorism, you should in fact do so. Believers who contemplatively read the Mormon scriptures ask themselves, “What if an angel commanded me to murder innocent people? Would I be as obedient as Abraham was?”
Was what Tal said inconsistent with the loyalty oaths taken in the endowment ceremony? No.
I think the following is an example of what Rollo is talking about.
Joseph F. Smith, the sixth president of the church, once admitted that he was about to stab a man with his pocket knife if he even expressed approval of the murder of Joseph Smith. Apostle Abraham H. Cannon recorded the following in his journal under the date of December 6, 1889:
About 4:30 p.m. this meeting adjourned and was followed by a meeting of Presidents Woodruff, Cannon and Smith and Bros. Lyman and Grant.... Bro. Joseph F. Smith was traveling some years ago near Carthage when he met a man who said he had just arrived five minutes too late to see the Smiths killed. Instantly a dark cloud seemed to overshadow Bro. Smith and he asked how this man looked upon the deed. Bro. S. was oppressed by a most horrible feeling as he waited for a reply. After a brief pause the man answered, "Just as I have always looked upon it—that it was a d—d cold-blooded murder." The cloud immediately lifted from Bro. Smith and he found that he had his open pocket knife grasped in his hand in his pocket, and he believes that had this man given his approval to that murder of the prophets he would have immediately struck him to the heart
There is no command from the current-at-that-time prophet to kill this man. This example does not fit the criteria for this discussion of obedience. Joseph F would not have been being obedient to the call from the prophet at the time to kill this man, because there was no call from the prophet to kill people who spoke favorably of the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the Smiths. Joseph F would have been acting on his own. The prophet cannot be faulted for the impulses of members acting on their own (which I think is why the MMM is so clouded... was John D acting on his own or at the behest of his prophet?)