The Dude's Philosophy

[_The Dude]

That said, if I were to ever come to the conclusion that it is all a crock, I'm doubtful that I would find it "stimulating to explore that break-out moment again and again and ... fulfilling to help others do the same whenever possible ..." Somehow that seems vengeful and petty to me. I mean, let the fools (if that's how you view them) cling to whatever floats their boat or anchors their faith or gives them hope. I've always felt that, for most people, a false hope is far more preferable to no hope at all. Some folks just don't have the capacity to face the cruel unfeeling world without it.

Well, Will, you still aren't getting it then. Let me continue along the lines of what I said in the second paragraph you quoted. Does it make sense to say newly converted Mormons speak out to their non-LDS friends/family because they are "vengeful and petty"? Or does it make sense that they are motivated by the happiness and truth they have found? Newly converted Mormons might let the unconverted fools cling to their heathen ways, for whatever reason, but the ones who speak out aren't really motivated by vengefulness or pettiness. And neither are the ex-mormons who speak out to the ones who've stayed with the faith.

This may be the only thing I agree with Juliann about: conversion and de-conversion can be understood as the same process. So the feelings that motivate ex-mormons to speak out and share their stories are of the same kind that motivate TBMs in testimony meeting.

I'm confident that if you ever loose your testimony, you will understand what I'm saying. Furthermore, it just seems in your character to speak out. You are good at it too. You'd be a good ex-mo missionary, or something like that.

Anyway, that one character flaw aside, I respect The Dude for not being afraid to wear his godless-heathen-bastardness on his sleeve. I'll speak in his behalf when they damn him to eternal torment, and I'll bring along a full cooler of Pilsner Urquels when I go to visit him in hell.

I appreciate your good will, William. And I really like a refreshing pilsner. Don't bring me no bitter ales.

[_Gazelam]

Your revolution is over, Mr. Dude. Condolences. The Apostates lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a revelation, sir. The Apostates will always lose. Do you hear me, DUDE?

The Apostates will always lose!

[_William Schryver]

That said, if I were to ever come to the conclusion that it is all a crock, I'm doubtful that I would find it "stimulating to explore that break-out moment again and again and ... fulfilling to help others do the same whenever possible ..." Somehow that seems vengeful and petty to me. I mean, let the fools (if that's how you view them) cling to whatever floats their boat or anchors their faith or gives them hope. I've always felt that, for most people, a false hope is far more preferable to no hope at all. Some folks just don't have the capacity to face the cruel unfeeling world without it.

Well, Will, you still aren't getting it then. Let me continue along the lines of what I said in the second paragraph you quoted. Does it make sense to say newly converted Mormons speak out to their non-LDS friends/family because they are "vengeful and petty"? Or does it make sense that they are motivated by the happiness and truth they have found? Newly converted Mormons might let the unconverted fools cling to their heathen ways, for whatever reason, but the ones who speak out aren't really motivated by vengefulness or pettiness. And neither are the ex-mormons who speak out to the ones who've stayed with the faith.

This may be the only thing I agree with Juliann about: conversion and de-conversion can be understood as the same process. So the feelings that motivate ex-mormons to speak out and share their stories are of the same kind that motivate TBMs in testimony meeting.

I'm confident that if you ever loose your testimony, you will understand what I'm saying. Furthermore, it just seems in your character to speak out. You are good at it too. You'd be a good ex-mo missionary, or something like that.

Anyway, that one character flaw aside, I respect The Dude for not being afraid to wear his godless-heathen-bastardness on his sleeve. I'll speak in his behalf when they damn him to eternal torment, and I'll bring along a full cooler of Pilsner Urquels when I go to visit him in hell.

I appreciate your good will, William. And I really like a refreshing pilsner. Don't bring me no bitter ales.

I think I understand now. The Dude is actually "Elder Dude, Evangelist to the Believers." OK, I can deal with that, too. It reminds me of a saying I once learned regarding artists: "Every artist is an evangelist -- he wants you to see things the way he sees them." So, in your case, you changed your gospel, but you never lost your urge to preach. I regard that as a genuine sentiment as well.

And, I heartily agree, a bitter ale would not quench the bitterness of hell -- a first-rate pilsner is the only way to go.

Peace, love, and nudist camps ...

[_Mister Scratch]

Well, Will, you still aren't getting it then. [....]
I'm confident that if you ever loose your testimony, you will understand what I'm saying.

I could be mistaken, but didn't Will leave the Church for a brief time? I have long been under the impression that he is a Ray A-type---i.e., he waffles back and forth in his loyalty to the Church.... I could be wrong, though.

[_Runtu]

Your revolution is over, Mr. Dude. Condolences. The Apostates lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a revelation, sir. The Apostates will always lose. Do you hear me, DUDE?

The Apostates will always lose!

What on earth are you talking about? I thought truth will prevail, no matter what. If the apostates have the truth on their side, they won't lose. At least not very often. :-)

[_richardMdBorn]

Your revolution is over, Mr. Dude. Condolences. The Apostates lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a revelation, sir. The Apostates will always lose. Do you hear me, DUDE?

The Apostates will always lose!

Now you've explained Joseph Smith.

[_William Schryver]

Well, Will, you still aren't getting it then. [....]
I'm confident that if you ever loose your testimony, you will understand what I'm saying.

I could be mistaken, but didn't Will leave the Church for a brief time? I have long been under the impression that he is a Ray A-type---I.e., he waffles back and forth in his loyalty to the Church.... I could be wrong, though.

It is quite an elaborate mythology that you've built up around me and others among the "believers." And, once again, your fantasies have no basis in the facts. Oh, well, that's what I like about you, Scratch -- you're such a reliably constant indicator: one can always be certain that whatever you say is 180 degrees opposite to the truth.

[_Blixa]

The Dude is righteous, no doubt.

But there are different kinds of "anger" I think---as well as all kinds of civil disagreements that would fall under Ray's definition of it. (Unlike some on the MADboards I don't think "angry exmo" really is an ontologically separate and obvious subset of exmormons in general).

I have a scholarly interest in some aspects of Mormon history and a political critique of what I see as its misogyny, racism and authoritarianism: the two are very much connected. And I probably wouldn't have either had I not grown up in Utah and been nominally "raised" Mormon and rejected it.

When I was younger I did have a knee-jerk disdain of Mormons as people---meaning that I didn't separate the church as an institution from the individual members in it. Later, and largely because of my academic work in cultural and political theory, I was able to conceptualize "Mormonism" in what I think is a more complex and useful manner. But it wasn't really until I started posting on RfM (after being away from Utah for over 25 years, "out" of the church for over 30, and thinking very little about it during that time), that I started to have a kind of personal empathy for those who believed in it far more than I ever did.

For example, because I was already very distant from Mormon culture by the time I graduated High School, I neverreally knew anyone who went on a mission and only rarely had any contact with any returned missionaries, still believers or not. That I would later have friends who were RMs would have astonished my younger self.

I don't mean to suggest that RfM made me a wonderful and marvelous avartar of religious tolerance. I'm no such thing and I don't know if I even want to be (though I would need to explain how I understand "tolerance," a much different and bigger discussion than I can launch into here). But I do think I've learned that I didn't know or understand everything about "the Mormon experience." And the knowledge I've gained has given me a different appreciation and condemnation of various aspect of it.

There still things I hate and find contemptible about "the church." But I don't think my responses can be collapsed purely into some kind of emotional virulence and irrationality. The need to do so is born not from a desire to understand, but merely dismiss.

[_Mister Scratch]

Well, Will, you still aren't getting it then. [....]
I'm confident that if you ever loose your testimony, you will understand what I'm saying.

I could be mistaken, but didn't Will leave the Church for a brief time? I have long been under the impression that he is a Ray A-type---I.e., he waffles back and forth in his loyalty to the Church.... I could be wrong, though.

It is quite an elaborate mythology that you've built up around me and others among the "believers." And, once again, your fantasies have no basis in the facts. Oh, well, that's what I like about you, Scratch -- you're such a reliably constant indicator: one can always be certain that whatever you say is 180 degrees opposite to the truth.

What "mythology" would that be? You mean the one where you create sockpuppets such as "Chozah" in order to deceive Dan Vogel? Or the one where you accuse him of inventing sources out of whole cloth, only to tiptoe backwards and completely revise your position? Or the one where you appear on this board in order to clarify your position on the aforementioned sockpuppet, only to later erase your entire posts, so that we wouldn't be able to refer to it later?

Anyways, I could have sworn that I saw you post something on the old, ironically named FAIRboard, in which you mentioned leaving the Church for a time.... I guess I'm wrong, though.

[_Dan Vogel]

Will,

That said, if I were to ever come to the conclusion that it is all a crock, I'm doubtful that I would find it "stimulating to explore that break-out moment again and again and ... fulfilling to help others do the same whenever possible ..."

Boy, am I relieved to hear you say that!!!