Was I clear as mud as to how to find peace?

[_cacheman]

Hi MG! It's been a while, I hope all is well.

I agree with much of what you said, although I'm unwilling to make judgements on who may or may not have made their spiritual decisions prematurely. Obviously, there is a level of black and white thinking in all of us that plays into our search for internal peace and happiness. I respect the fact that you've been able to find that in the LDS church, and from reading your posts over the years, it appears that your spiritual choices have stemmed from a lot of study and reflection.

There is much that I like and respect about the LDS church, and so naturally I have investigated the possibility of remaining in the church while still maintaining some of my unorthodox beliefs. In the end, I've come to realize that I cannot possibly retain a sense of internal peace by remaining a member of a church in which I believe it's truth claims are only possible. Here's where my black and white thinking comes in. For me to remain a member of the LDS church, I would be lending support to some ideas that I believe are hurtful or harmful. I would require a high level of certainty in my beliefs to support some of these ideas.

I do concur with you that there is more than meets the eye, and that each of us needs to beware of overly simplistic thinking. I've found that there are unanswerable questions that like you, I need to shelve in order to maintain my current beliefs. I have a difficult time understanding how some people can see things so cut and dry, although I can see how doing so can bring a certain level of comfort.

I think the important thing is that given the level of uncertainty that each of us has, we should be able to acknowledge that anyone else may actually be closer to the truth than ourselves. We can acknowledge this while still pursuing what we believe in our hearts and minds. This kind of mindset allows us to view other's spiritual paths in a more charitable and respectful way. Ideally, we would be able to have more productive discussion between people if we acknowledged this and realized that we are all in this together and can only offer our infallible perspectives.

Again, it was good to hear from you. Your posts have a habit of drawing me out of lurking mode. Maybe, I'm just pining for the good ol' days of ZLMB:)

cacheman

[_mentalgymnast]

In the celestial realms of this forum a poster who goes by the name "Inconceivable" posed the following question:

For those of you that make up the board, what have you found that brings peace to the troubled soul?

He/she was asking this question due to the troubles/conflicts perceived as he/she has tried to work himself/herself through the maze of doubt/skepticism in regards to things Mormon.

I responded in this manner:

MG: here is how I see it. Anything of worth over the long haul is going to take work. Literal and/or figurative sweat and tears. That which is of greater worth will typically be preceded by more opportunities to muddle through a wider range of experiences/situations which will involve sweat and tears, again literally or figuratively. Same with happiness. Happiness can be found along a spectrum. That happiness which is eternal/secure requires a greater degree of nurturing, work, sweat, and a few tears along the way.

Sacrifice is part of the mix too.

Graduating beyond the primary/seminary version of Mormonism, and yet remaining active, provides opportunities to experience hardships, learnings, progressions, sweat and tears, happinesses, insights, etc. that can't be found/tapped without going through it. Those that leave the church behind, physically and/or mentally-spiritually without moving beyond the primary/seminary days mentality/paradigm are bound for some frustrations, disappointments, and possible disillusionment as they come to find that there is more to assimilate (new Mormon history, science and religion, church institutional issues, revelatory conundrums...and on and on) than they ever thought in their wildest dreams that they would have to. To find that truth is not wrapped up in one little tidy package (LDS'ism TM) with a bow on top (In other words's that the world is a much bigger place than just Mormonism) can be somewhat disconcerting to those that may have believed this to be the case.

For me, peace is knowing that I don't have to have all the answers...that in fact I can have more questions than answers, and still remain an active member of the church. Peace, knowing that when all is said and done it is not unreasonable to believe in God. That it is not unreasonable that God has a plan/purpose for all of his creations. That it is not unreasonable to think that we are children of a loving Father. That it is not unreasonable to think that the LDS church/gospel of Jesus Christ plays an integral and important part in God's plan for the eternal welfare/happiness of at least a portion of his children, if not all. That it is not unreasonable to consider the fact that life gets messy in and out of the church because of the agency/nature of man and that this fact needs to be factored into everything that we experience in and out of the church. That it is not unreasonable to consider the possibility of life after life, and that this life is in some way a preparation...at least for some...for that future existence. That it is not unreasonable to excercise faith in that which is not seen but in which to some degree there are some indicators/evidences that this faith may not be misplaced.

The PP's, Scratch's, Bond's, Shades of this board have issues because they have not been able to move beyond a primary/seminary outlook towards the world and the church. They will say they have, but I honestly don't believe this to be the case. They are black/white thinkers...if you can call it thinking. They grew up literally thinking that all the thinking that ever had to be thunk had been done by someone other than themselves. They are very simplistic and naïve in their outlook towards what and who God is and how he may or may not operate in the universe. If he doesn't conform to their image, then he doesn't exist. They are ready and happy to jump on the secular bandwagon without the least provocation. They will say otherwise and call those such as myself a fool for even alluding to the possibility that this may be the case, but nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that they are the ones that have been duped and deluded into thinking "inside the box" of skepticism and doubt, to the exclusion of other possibilities.

To find out that Mormonism was not simply what they larned in primary/seminary and reading the New Era or Ensign threw them for a loop from which they never were able to extricate themselves and recover. Thus, we find them and others like them supposedly "recovering" over at the RFM board or here.

I go back to my first two paragraphs. I think it is not unreasonable to consider that what I've said there makes sense and may well even be true. If you are truly looking for peace rather than being forced to adhere only to the mushy, new age, rather simplistic formula that Bond put forward in his post (even if he was on acid...he he he), you may want to consider the possibility that truth is to be found within the LDS church.

She/he then responded that I was being somewhat incoherent to the extent that what I was saying was "clear as mud".

Was I that unclear in what I was attempting to say? by the way, I spelled learned...larned...intentionally. Maybe this threw him/her off, thinking I was a hick from Hicksville. <g>

After she/he responded and I responded back in kind, the conversation apparently went south even though there were a bunch of views on the topic after my last post.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
MG

I didn't read the other thread, but I think you were very clear in what you wrote above. It's quite clear that you are as happy as a little mud duck to be a Mormon. Well, I have this to say about that. Getting beyond the seminary Mormonism is still getting nowhere. The furthest you can go in Mormonism is spiritual kindergarten. That's where your GA's and beloved GBH are stuck, and all the mission presidents and area reps and bishops are stuck, as much in spiritual kindergarten as the primary children singing "follow the prophet," and there is no further for any of you to go, no matter what blood sweat and tears, no matter what sacrifices you make, your religion is limited and the only way to gain anything that feels like peace in Mormonism is to put all doubts, questions and evidence on the shelf, fold your arms and say amen.

MG: and there you have it.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I thought it was fairly clear and very much one of the standard answers I hear from church members. This is a variation on the "you just didn't get it" theme. Apparently, those who find that the church's serious problems of history and practice disqualify it as a "true church" are guilty of black and white thinking and haven't graduated past a seminary-level understand. Those enlightened people who look past the problems, however, are the ones who find peace.

Forgive me for finding this more than a bit condescending.

MG: if you've read my other posts on this board or been involved with ZLMB and observed my interactions with others on that now defunct board, you would know that I am not being condescending.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Ahhh MG, Primary Chorister, and Cacheman.... COOL! :-)

MG, yeah I think you were clear.

The thing is though...

It is the LDS church that claims to have all the answers. It is not the non-believers.

While I may have missed a post somewhere on some board, I don't think I have ever heard a non-believer claim to know all the answers, have the one and only true church, claim to be in direct contact with Jesus Christ himself, state the true nature of God, or claim to have the one true power and authority of God.

So, I don't know how you can suggest that it is the non-believers who are holding the black and white idea. Where does the black and white idea come from? From the LDS teachings, doctrine, prophets...

Where is the teaching that the church is only "a" way of many to know God? Or that you don't really have to believe in the restoration? Or that the leaders really do not know if God is a man? Or that you do not have to be baptized/sealed/etc in the LDS church to live with God in the CKHL? Or that Joseph Smith may or may not have got it right? Ya know what I mean?

To let go of belief in the church is to let go of the black and white thinking, for the most part. (Not to suggest there aren't some believers who do not embrace the black and white teachings).

You seem to suggest that the real truth, or the fullness of the truth, or truth for the more special, brilliant, spiritual folk has nothing to do with the actual church doctrine/teachings/beliefs taught by prophets but is something altogether different.

I just so don't get this! But you know this! LOL!

Nice to see you...

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

This kind of thing is High Condescension:

To find out that Mormonism was not simply what they larned in primary/seminary and reading the New Era or Ensign...

As runtu said, its more of the "you didn't get it" thing, here made more sneering with the implication that one is still in "kindergarten" mode and maybe not "smart" enough to progress on to the supposedly "deeper" mysteries of Mormonism.

Well if "primary/seminary" and "the New Era or Ensign" teach such gosh-durned simplistic and water-downed versions, why is that? Don't "the Brethren" think member are adults?

Its most certainly not a sign of mental slowness to imagine that church doctrines would be
taught in church and promulgated in church publications.

But, why I bothering with this I don't know. The original post depends on a semi-retarded straw man concocted by someone who calls themselves "mentalgymnast." That alone speaks volumes.

p.s. I spelled "darned" "durned" on purpose.

MG: hi there Blixa. The church isn't necessarily run the way a particular individual such as yourself wants it to be. The church is run the way that a group of people in Salt Lake want it to be. That's life. Now...what are we to do with that? You will go your way, and I will go mine. The church sees itself as having a three-fold mission. How best to accomplish that mission on a global scale is high priority with those that work in the COB. Your priorities are yours, not the church's.

That's not condescension, that's reality.

Sneering huh? <smile> That's quite a descriptive word that seems out of place within the context of this discussion and my actual motivation/feelings.

Whatever floats your boat though.

I contend that there is a core difference(s) between those that jump ship and those that don't see a reason to after having received enlightenment as to those things that are potentially destructive to faith. I have alluded to some of these differences in my original post.

It isn't good vs. bad difference(s). Choices are involved.

Don't take it personally, OK? <g>

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi MG! It's been a while, I hope all is well.

I agree with much of what you said, although I'm unwilling to make judgements on who may or may not have made their spiritual decisions prematurely. Obviously, there is a level of black and white thinking in all of us that plays into our search for internal peace and happiness. I respect the fact that you've been able to find that in the LDS church, and from reading your posts over the years, it appears that your spiritual choices have stemmed from a lot of study and reflection.

There is much that I like and respect about the LDS church, and so naturally I have investigated the possibility of remaining in the church while still maintaining some of my unorthodox beliefs. In the end, I've come to realize that I cannot possibly retain a sense of internal peace by remaining a member of a church in which I believe it's truth claims are only possible. Here's where my black and white thinking comes in. For me to remain a member of the LDS church, I would be lending support to some ideas that I believe are hurtful or harmful. I would require a high level of certainty in my beliefs to support some of these ideas.

I do concur with you that there is more than meets the eye, and that each of us needs to beware of overly simplistic thinking. I've found that there are unanswerable questions that like you, I need to shelve in order to maintain my current beliefs. I have a difficult time understanding how some people can see things so cut and dry, although I can see how doing so can bring a certain level of comfort.

I think the important thing is that given the level of uncertainty that each of us has, we should be able to acknowledge that anyone else may actually be closer to the truth than ourselves. We can acknowledge this while still pursuing what we believe in our hearts and minds. This kind of mindset allows us to view other's spiritual paths in a more charitable and respectful way. Ideally, we would be able to have more productive discussion between people if we acknowledged this and realized that we are all in this together and can only offer our infallible perspectives.

Again, it was good to hear from you. Your posts have a habit of drawing me out of lurking mode. Maybe, I'm just pining for the good ol' days of ZLMB:)

cacheman

MG: hi cacheman. It's good to touch base with you again. I too have always enjoyed your twist on things over the years. I think that we walk a similar path. I'd like to comment on one thing you said.

For me to remain a member of the LDS church, I would be lending support to some ideas that I believe are hurtful or harmful.

MG: I hear what you're saying, and I think I have at least an inkling as to what you're saying it about. Examples are not a few that we could bring up that show that hurt and pain (human mistakes and actions that don't seem to be resolved appropriately/effectively, doctrinal inconsistencies and ambiguities that seem to result in negative eternal and "this life" consequences as a result of simply being faithful and/or obedient , heavy handedness by authority figures, gender biases that become culturally ingrained and enforced, etc.) have been a part of the LDS experience and continue to be.

Simply, here's how I deal with it.

First, I make an assumption that opposition is theoretically part of "the plan". Hurt and pain provide opposition. Growth occurs...or not...through opposition. Messiness creates opposition.

Second, I make the assumption that the atonement of Christ theoretically takes care of or adjusts the hurts and the pains, AND OBSERVABLE RESULTS, of mortality INTO experience that can in the long run, somehow, someway, help intelligent beings grow and progress and become who/what they are able and/or meant to be. How that works in fine detail is obviously the great unknown, because we are...well...we're in the here and now and can't see beyond the end of our nose.

So I think opposition and atonement play a part in surmounting the problem created by looking at the hurt and pain the exists all around us, in all areas, in and out of the church.

S*** happens as they say. So do accidents that appear to throw a monkey wrench into all that is wonderful and good.

Opposition...isn't it wonderful?

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG... I wanted to respond to a couple more of your thoughts...

e PP's, Scratch's, Bond's, Shades of this board have issues because they have not been able to move beyond a primary/seminary outlook towards the world and the church.

Why do you think this? The very fact that they no longer hold to the "primary/seinary outlook" seems to indicate they have moved beyond it.

They are black/white thinkers...if you can call it thinking. T

Wow... I know quite a few folks who no longer believe in the church and black and white thinkers they are not!

hey grew up literally thinking that all the thinking that ever had to be thunk had been done by someone other than themselves.

No, they grew up in a church that CLAIMED THAT THEY HAD ALL THE ANSWERS.

They are very simplistic and naïve in their outlook towards what and who God is and how he may or may not operate in the universe.

No, again, it is the church who claims they know how God works, and how/who he is. Where have you ever heard a non-believe claim to know the ultimate truth about God? I really don't see this at all.

If he doesn't conform to their image, then he doesn't exist.

What? It is the church who claims to have the knowledge of what God does and doesn't do, how he looks, what sort of body he has, how he interacts with humans, what he wants humans to do etc. etc. Letting go of belief in the LDS church means letting go of what the church claims GOD is based on THEIR teachings/doctrine, etc. etc. etc.

They are ready and happy to jump on the secular bandwagon without the least provocation.

With all due respect this is just so not the case. In every situation of which I know, letting go of belief has been a painful, difficult, sorrowful, and heart wrenching experience.

They will say otherwise and call those such as myself a fool for even alluding to the possibility that this may be the case, but nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that they are the ones that have been duped and deluded into thinking "inside the box" of skepticism and doubt, to the exclusion of other possibilities.

I don't think anyone is calling believers "fools."

Inside the box, in my opinion, means one is embracing LDS thought. Thinking outside the box is thinking outside the teachings/doctrine/beliefs of LDS thought so I do not quite understand how non-believers are not thinking outside the box.

Hmmm...

~dancer~

[_Runtu]

I thought it was fairly clear and very much one of the standard answers I hear from church members. This is a variation on the "you just didn't get it" theme. Apparently, those who find that the church's serious problems of history and practice disqualify it as a "true church" are guilty of black and white thinking and haven't graduated past a seminary-level understand. Those enlightened people who look past the problems, however, are the ones who find peace.

Forgive me for finding this more than a bit condescending.

MG: if you've read my other posts on this board or been involved with ZLMB and observed my interactions with others on that now defunct board, you would know that I am not being condescending.

Regards,
MG

Well, I don't know you very well, it's true. Sorry if I misread you. Maybe it's just that I just got home from church and therefore was in a bad mood. ;)

[_Runtu]

Hi MG... I wanted to respond to a couple more of your thoughts...

e PP's, Scratch's, Bond's, Shades of this board have issues because they have not been able to move beyond a primary/seminary outlook towards the world and the church.

Why do you think this? The very fact that they no longer hold to the "primary/seinary outlook" seems to indicate they have moved beyond it.

They are black/white thinkers...if you can call it thinking. T

Wow... I know quite a few folks who no longer believe in the church and black and white thinkers they are not!

hey grew up literally thinking that all the thinking that ever had to be thunk had been done by someone other than themselves.

No, they grew up in a church that CLAIMED THAT THEY HAD ALL THE ANSWERS.

They are very simplistic and naïve in their outlook towards what and who God is and how he may or may not operate in the universe.

No, again, it is the church who claims they know how God works, and how/who he is. Where have you ever heard a non-believe claim to know the ultimate truth about God? I really don't see this at all.

If he doesn't conform to their image, then he doesn't exist.

What? It is the church who claims to have the knowledge of what God does and doesn't do, how he looks, what sort of body he has, how he interacts with humans, what he wants humans to do etc. etc. Letting go of belief in the LDS church means letting go of what the church claims GOD is based on THEIR teachings/doctrine, etc. etc. etc.

They are ready and happy to jump on the secular bandwagon without the least provocation.

With all due respect this is just so not the case. In every situation of which I know, letting go of belief has been a painful, difficult, sorrowful, and heart wrenching experience.

They will say otherwise and call those such as myself a fool for even alluding to the possibility that this may be the case, but nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that they are the ones that have been duped and deluded into thinking "inside the box" of skepticism and doubt, to the exclusion of other possibilities.

I don't think anyone is calling believers "fools."

Inside the box, in my opinion, means one is embracing LDS thought. Thinking outside the box is thinking outside the teachings/doctrine/beliefs of LDS thought so I do not quite understand how non-believers are not thinking outside the box.

Hmmm...

~dancer~

I started a thread about this on the board that must not be named because I find it fascinating that people want to ascribe a small set of motivations and attitudes to those who "leave the fold." Oddly enough, we are quite a diverse group. My old mission companion/BYU roommate was someone I considered a black and white thinker, so much so that he once yelled at me for "straying from the manual" in a Gospel Doctrine lesson.

He always criticized me for being too flexible, too willing to accept human frailty in the church, too "shades of gray" for him.

We are very different sorts of people, but we left the church for pretty much the same underlying reasons. Are we both black and white thinkers? I don't think so.

[_Blixa]

The church isn't necessarily run the way a particular individual such as yourself wants it to be. The church is run the way that a group of people in Salt Lake want it to be.

The only way I want "the church" to be run is in a fashion which treats both members and nonmembers with respect. I don't think that's the currently case.

And I don't take it personally because I never believed or invested in it in the first place.