Interesting video clip

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

You give them the simplist explanation. The shortest answer, then you move the discussion to more basic principles.


But even this is contrary to what Millet said in the video. Millet didn’t suggest short answers. He suggested changing the question.

Your right in that we were not asked to debate, that the spirit leaves when you do so. The trick then is, as Millet stated, you turn the discusion to the root of the problem. You steer the discussion into the questions that should be asked.


I think you made a Freudian slip with the word “trick,” because tricking (i.e. deceiving) them is precisely what’s going on here. This helps explain why LDS missionaries are so unsuccessful. They dictate the terms by which a non-LDS should hear about the gospel. They have to control the environment and always be on guard of any outside influence that might cause the investigator to think critically. There is also a lot of leading going on too. Golden Investigators are generally those who don’t ask much and just go along with whatever the Elders say. A Jedi’s mind trick would work wonders on such weak minds. For example,

Elder: Did you read the Book of Mormon last night?
GI (Golden Investigator): Yes
Elder: How did you feel? . . ..
GI: Um, OK I guess
Elder: Did you happen to feel peace and goodness?
GI: Um I guess so.
Elder: Please turn to Galatians 5:22 and read for us
GI: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith
Elder: You see! That means God is telling you the Book of Mormon is true!
GI: Ya think?
Elder: Yes, I can feel the spirit right now. Can’t you brother Jones?
Brother Jones: Yes, I remember when I first felt the spirit this was God’s way of telling me the Book of Mormon was true which means the Mormon Church is true. My life has been blessed ever since then. I bear you my testimony that God lives, that Joseph Smith was a prophet…(missionaries begin to get misty)

Now that is the script as it is supposed to go. Of course this doesn’t usually happen, and when it does the elders start talking about their first GI.

But the number one problem I have with the missionary discussions is that we were supposed to commit them to baptism after only two discussions! We were told that we could commit them earlier if the spirit willed it, but never later than the second discussion. That was mandatory. Now please explain to me why anyone should commit to something before hearing the latter two-thirds of the “milk.”

Question about polygamy? You give the brief answer regarding Gods views on marriage, then turn to the question of whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. If Joseph was a true prophet, then the doctrine of polygamy is a true one. I had to answer questions like this all the time.


Yes I know how the logic goes – I employed it enough to know - and looking back it seems stupid to me. It is reverse engineering to obtain an answer. That is why they try to commit them early during the second discussion. So if they end up having concerns during the third-sixth discussion, you already have them committed and they feel stupid for raising concerns when they already told you they “know” the Church is true. Then you can use this reverse engineering tactic thusly: Since you already know the Church is true, and God told you so during our last discussion, then that means the doctrine of tithing is also true. So there is no room for argument. To argue about it means you're questioning God. That is why missionaries absolutely love to hook them early, so that way any subsequent concerns will put the investigator, not the missionary, in an awkward position.

Do I give them a taste of what I got from the fountain? Or do I teach them how to reach the fountain themselves?


This is just another way of stating the milk/meat doctrine, which still remains tasteless and a “trick.”
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Gazelam wrote:Image

If you have ever read any of Joseph McConkies writings or talks then you might have a better understanding of why my mission was the way it was. We broke records in regards to baptisms and such. Most of the missionaries were of the "golden" variety.


Were you able to do things that are now disallowed?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

We broke records in regards to baptisms and such


What records?

I served in 91-92 as well but in Madrid and California. During that time it was the Provo mission that was leading all missions, and the Anaheim Mission, where some Mexicans were baptized the same day they were introduced to the Church, was up there too.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

dartagnan wrote:
We broke records in regards to baptisms and such


What records?

I served in 91-92 as well but in Madrid and California. During that time it was the Provo mission that was leading all missions, and the Anaheim Mission, where some Mexicans were baptized the same day they were introduced to the Church, was up there too.
And all of those Mexicans who passed through the wet turnstile are still counted among the "millions strong" that Hinck loves to boast about.

Mormonism is nothing more than a multi level marketing cult scam cloaked in family values.

Think about it, just like MLMs, Mormonism is all about getting people to join, the more converts the bigger the empty promises for the member, promises so far off they will be granted.

No wonder so many Mormons fall for MLM scams.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Dart

Post by _Dr. Shades »

STATEMENT #1:

Gazelam wrote:On my mission we answered every question asked us, and if we didn't know the answer, we were invited to pick up the phone and call the mission President. He happened to be Joseph Fielding McConkie, co-author of numerous books with Millet. And he always had an answer.


STATEMENT #2:

The trick then is, as Millet stated, you turn the discusion to the root of the problem. You steer the discussion into the questions that should be asked. Question about polygamy? You give the brief answer regarding Gods views on marriage, then turn to the question of whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. If Joseph was a true prophet, then the doctrine of polygamy is a true one.


Gazelam, it appears to me that your first statement contracts your second statement. Care to explain?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_SatanWasSetUp
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Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

Gazelam wrote:
I've written this before, but it was a while ago. I was living in Connecticut in 1986-7 and two LDS missionaries came knocking. I asked about Joseph Smith and polygamy and they had no idea that he had practiced it.


Section 132 must be like the Bermuda triangle of the scriptures, where when you read it your memory disappears.


How many TBMs actually read the scriptures? You do have a point that a lot of the questionable stuff is in plain site, not all of it though cuz the church has "updated" their materials over the decades, but to most members the only thing that is really doctrinal is whatever the prophet has said within the past 15 years or so. Earrings, tattoos, the word of wisdom, tithing, home teaching, pornography, those are the most important doctrines right now because it's what the prophet has been preaching on recently. Who cares what's in the scriptures, or what the church used to teach? Scriptures are simply part of the Sunday wardrobe, complete with fancy leather tote. White shirt, tie, dark suit, scriptures, short hair, no beard. if you have all this, you're in good standing.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

SatanWasSetUp wrote:How many TBMs actually read the scriptures? You do have a point that a lot of the questionable stuff is in plain site, not all of it though cuz the church has "updated" their materials over the decades, but to most members the only thing that is really doctrinal is whatever the prophet has said within the past 15 years or so. Earrings, tattoos, the word of wisdom, tithing, home teaching, pornography, those are the most important doctrines right now because it's what the prophet has been preaching on recently. Who cares what's in the scriptures, or what the church used to teach? Scriptures are simply part of the Sunday wardrobe, complete with fancy leather tote. White shirt, tie, dark suit, scriptures, short hair, no beard. if you have all this, you're in good standing.


Don't forget the little white piece of paper that's your admission ticket to the Celestial Kingdom. And you only get that piece of paper if you open your bank account to the tune of 10%. Without it, "good standing" is simply impossible.

You're right about what is taught now. Add loyalty to the church, reverence for the modern prophets that borders on worship, and a few token references to attributes of the gospel and you've got it. No boring financial reports, no updates on worldwide humanitarian aid, no denouncement of past racism, post-Manifesto polygamy, or massacres. We can certainly figure out that which bothers our leaders: modern dress, modern adornment, an obsession with sexuality that borders on the compulsive, and keeping the funds flowing in.
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

harmony wrote:Don't forget the little white piece of paper that's your admission ticket to the Celestial Kingdom. And you only get that piece of paper if you open your bank account to the tune of 10%. Without it, "good standing" is simply impossible.


True, but once you get the piece of paper once and take out your endowments in the meantime, it's no sin to allow it to lapse, is it?

In other words, member A has a current recommend but member B doesn't, but they've both had their endowments, so (all other things being equal) they're both on equal footing when Jesus returns (according to Mormonism), right?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Dr. Shades wrote:True, but once you get the piece of paper once and take out your endowments in the meantime, it's no sin to allow it to lapse, is it?


There you go, speaking blasphemy again, Shades. From what I understand, as far as God is concerned, once is enough. You did the ordinance, you live up to your promises, you're okay. As far as the church is concerned, get your tithing paid, so you can enjoy the fruits of your labor in the temples of the Lord. Empty temple parking lots look bad.

In other words, member A has a current recommend but member B doesn't, but they've both had their endowments, so (all other things being equal) they're both on equal footing when Jesus returns (according to Mormonism), right?


We're counseled to keep our recommends current. Being in good standing requires a current recommend, lest we be like the unprepared virgins who needed to fill their lamps with oil prior to entering with the bridegroom.

It doesn't matter if you never use your recommend, although ward temple days are designed to keep the Faithful faithful. That you have it what's important. And in order to have it, well... you know the drill.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Dr. Shades wrote:
harmony wrote:Don't forget the little white piece of paper that's your admission ticket to the Celestial Kingdom. And you only get that piece of paper if you open your bank account to the tune of 10%. Without it, "good standing" is simply impossible.


True, but once you get the piece of paper once and take out your endowments in the meantime, it's no sin to allow it to lapse, is it?

In other words, member A has a current recommend but member B doesn't, but they've both had their endowments, so (all other things being equal) they're both on equal footing when Jesus returns (according to Mormonism), right?



2 Nephi 31:16

And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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