"Mormonism is the truth"

[_moksha]

by the way, I've been told by several different Australians that Fosters is strictly an export product - nobody drinks that in Australia. They all laughed at the notion, saying it's funny Americans all think the Aussies drink Fosters, when they actually don't.

What do they drink?

I think some sort of fermented Vegemite extract.

[_Sethbag]

by the way, I've been told by several different Australians that Fosters is strictly an export product - nobody drinks that in Australia. They all laughed at the notion, saying it's funny Americans all think the Aussies drink Fosters, when they actually don't.

What do they drink?

Don't get me wrong, they drink beer, and lots of it, but it's just other local brands, not Fosters.

[_Runtu]

I am curious about one thing Ray said though. I have noticed that very, very few people read the Book of Mormon again after leaving the LDS faith. This was my experience when dealing with inactives and critics. Have any of those here who have left the LDS Church read the whole book again after leaving? I've personally never found anyone who did.

Infymus, I have a replica of the 1830 Book of Mormon and have read it several times. I haven't found any substantive changes that would justify calling the current version 'sanitized'.

Yep, I did. My wife asked me to take President Hinckley's challenge to read the book before the end of 2005. I promised her I would, and I did so. I figured that if I read with real intent and prayed, I would know if I had made a mistake in leaving the church.

And I agree with your assessment of the 1981 edition. Contrary to a lot of critics' understanding, it is not so much a sanitized version (well, it is in some ways) as it is an attempt to reconcile the text with the surviving manuscripts and Joseph Smith's edits and emendations (which he did in 1837 and 1840). The famous change of "white" to "pure" was actually something Joseph Smith did.

[_Paul Osborne]

I think Ray’s heart is wrapped up in the confirmation of the Spirit of God that bears testimony of the Book of Mormon. I’m pleased to see that this book of scripture has made an indelible mark in his spirit whereby he can’t really reject it even if he wanted to and maintain a clear conscience. It’s as plain as daylight to him.

Ray has joy in the knowledge that the Book of Mormon teaches truth and is indeed a sword placed over the whole world in which it divides the righteous from the wicked. To you critics it may seem that his heart is hardened in Mormon madness but in reality I think it has become softened in humility and love for things he has come to better understand.

Paul O

[_Runtu]

I think Ray’s heart is wrapped up in the confirmation of the Spirit of God that bears testimony of the Book of Mormon. I’m pleased to see that this book of scripture has made an indelible mark in his spirit whereby he can’t really reject it even if he wanted to and maintain a clear conscience. It’s as plain as daylight to him.

Ray has joy in the knowledge that the Book of Mormon teaches truth and is indeed a sword placed over the whole world in which it divides the righteous from the wicked. To you critics it may seem that his heart is hardened in Mormon madness but in reality I think it has become softened in humility and love for things he has come to better understand.

Paul O

I don't know what to make of Ray. Humble, softened hearts don't usually start profanity-laced threads about how evil other people are.

[_Blixa]

I went back and read through how that thread is progressing. In many ways its a proto-typical MAD thread, no? People relate common experience with Mormon religion/Mormon culture only to be told by Madsters that such things "never happened" or are not true and Juliann gets grumpy over word definitions and context (satan influenced vs. Satanic, angry vs. seething with anger, etc).

The only things that caught my attention, like they have several times before, were the comments by gitxsanartist. He seems sincere in his questioning and thoughtful in his observations. I wish he had a better group to talk to. He came over to RfM once and was put off by the abrupt challenges he was met with (by chance, really. If different posters had seen his post first and responded, other than the ones who did, perhaps he would have stayed).

I tried to talk to him, but I probably used a poor approach too, prodding his assumptions of objective universals in an attempt to start the conversation in a different footing.

[_Runtu]

I went back and read through how that thread is progressing. In many ways its a proto-typical MAD thread, no? People relate common experience with Mormon religion/Mormon culture only to be told by Madsters that such things "never happened" or are not true and Juliann gets grumpy over word definitions and context (satan influenced vs. Satanic, angry vs. seething with anger, etc).

Grumpy is a good word. She jumped all over me for saying that the "Santa Claus" and "Satan-influenced" tropes are not rhetorically effective in promoting understanding or helping wayward sheep return.

The only things that caught my attention, like they have several times before, were the comments by gitxsanartist. He seems sincere in his questioning and thoughtful in his observations. I wish he had a better group to talk to. He came over to RfM once and was put off by the abrupt challenges he was met with (by chance, really. If different posters had seen his post first and responded, other than the ones who did, perhaps he would have stayed).

I tried to talk to him, but I probably used a poor approach too, prodding his assumptions of objective universals in an attempt to start the conversation in a different footing.

I've had some good discussions with him. He's a nice guy and very sincere.

[_Blixa]

I've had some good discussions with him. He's a nice guy and very sincere.

He certainly seems that way. He's stood out to me on the positive side of the ledger for a while now.

I think the kind of forum he would feel most comfortable in may not exist though---I don't know of a site that is purely conjenctural and historical query with no spill-over into emotional harrangue and mockery. Is there such a one? I don't mind the mix myself, even though I'm much more interested in, for lack of a better term, "scholarly inquiry" than personal repartee. That latter keeps things interesting, I'm not easily offended, and of course I end up learning things from that kind of discourse, too.

It may seem odd to some, but I've found that a strength of RfM: I have picked up a lot of useful informational bits about Mormon history/culture/theology. And here, as well.

I'm not as familiar with other with other site like postmormon or the foyer, but I have dropped in and found them much more tepid on all fronts.

I'm curious about others thoughts on this...I'm starting a new thread right now!

[_Runtu]

I've had some good discussions with him. He's a nice guy and very sincere.

He certainly seems that way. He's stood out to me on the positive side of the ledger for a while now.

I think the kind of forum he would feel most comfortable in may not exist though---I don't know of a site that is purely conjenctural and historical query with no spill-over into emotional harrangue and mockery. Is there such a one? I don't mind the mix myself, even though I'm much more interested in, for lack of a better term, "scholarly inquiry" than personal repartee. That latter keeps things interesting, I'm not easily offended, and of course I end up learning things from that kind of discourse, too.

No, there's no place I know of like that. I guess my main interests have always been in trying to find a peaceful place in exmormondom. I've tried to build bridges, and on RfM and MADB bridge-building is not particularly welcome. I think this forum has the potential to be the kind of place you're looking for, but we're not there yet. We don't have enough LDS participation, and there's too much of the mocking and haranguing on both sides. But off my soapbox, I think this place is as good as any.

It may seem odd to some, but I've found that a strength of RfM: I have picked up a lot of useful informational bits about Mormon history/culture/theology. And here, as well.

I'm not as familiar with other with other site like postmormon or the foyer, but I have dropped in and found them much more tepid on all fronts.

I'm curious about others thoughts on this...I'm starting a new thread right now!

There a lot of good, intelligent, knowledgeable people on RfM. I've made good friends there. There's a lot of mocking (and God knows I've done my share in the past), but it's not really what is described on MADB. I have learned a lot on RfM and gone a long way towards getting past the hurt and anger.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I am curious about one thing Ray said though. I have noticed that very, very few people read the Book of Mormon again after leaving the LDS faith. This was my experience when dealing with inactives and critics. Have any of those here who have left the LDS Church read the whole book again after leaving? I've personally never found anyone who did.

Infymus, I have a replica of the 1830 Book of Mormon and have read it several times. I haven't found any substantive changes that would justify calling the current version 'sanitized'.

I did. I actually hadn't read it all the way through in a long time, like 10 years. When I first started questioning, the bishop challenged me to read it. I started, but since I was now reading it with an open mind, and considering that it might not be an ancient text, unless 1830 is ancient, it was more obvious to me that it was a fraud. It was a silly read, especially since I had just read Guns, Germs, and Steel. So I stopeed reading. then, my wife decided to take up GBH's challenge to read it all the way through by the end of 2005, and we did as a family. We read it all the way through. It was as boring as watching paint dry, and as silly as reading about space aliens who lived in the Americas for 1000 years and left no trace. At least, that was my experience.

I agree with you on the changes. Nothing Earth shattering, and many changes made by Joseph Smith. It is interesting how the changes in the Book of Mormon matched up with Joseph's theological evolution, example, "Mother of God" changed to "Mother of the Son of God."