Mormon Misogyny

[_Seven]

I've lived in the Church my whole life and haven't seen the harm this is inflicting. My poor submissive mother routinely grabs their boat and takes the women in the ward water-skiing with NO MEN. Dun DUN DUN!!!! Most of the mothers of my LDS friends growing up were genuine equals with their partners. Most of my friends who are now married are now genuine equals. The one exception amongst my friends: the wife bosses her husband around. Not sure how he puts up with it but he seems content and loves her so not my problem.

The doctrine of male superiority shows up in one subculture in the Mormon Church I call the "Jackasses" usually a subtype of Jack-Mormons. Most are minimally active and the male likes to strut his Priesthood failing to understand the whole D&C 121 and the whole amen to the Priesthood and Authority of that man passage. Lest anyone think this passage is forgotten I can state that it comes up regularly and often in the wards I've attended.

I have been in the church my whole life and have seen some very well respected LDS husbands who most Mormons would consider devout and faithful members of the church who let their wives know their place. It isn't an abusive type situation for them, but the attitude is that they hold a power above women for a reason. (much of the same attitude that whites have toward the African race in relation to the pre existence)

My FIL, who is a very good man by LDS standards gathered all his children and grandchildren around him at Thanksgiving to give us all a lesson about why we don't pray to a "Heavenly Mother." My mouth dropped when he went into the Patriachal order and womens role in heaven. I was speechless at the time and wish I had spoken out. The reason for the lecture came about when one of the granddaughters in the family had said something a little to feminist for him.

I want to make it clear that like KimberlyAnn, I don't believe most LDS men are abusing their power. The fact is that they have power that we don't. It leaves the door open for abuses like polygamy, controlling behavior, sexist attitudes, etc.
Most LDS men in the church that I have known are some of the best husbands and fathers. LDS mothers are doing their best in raising their boys to view women as equals despite the church's doctrines and temple covenants. The point is that the doctrines and teachings enable men to view women as inferior to them. It doesn't mean they will act on it, but it's God sanctioned for them to view us this way.

LDS women do not feel oppressed because they are not at this time. My comments were directed at what will happen if Mormonism spread in great numbers throughout the world once the church becomes the governement. Right now, it's not a concern to any women in the church. Most don't even know the history of polygamy in the church and the oppression those women went through when there was no seperation of church and state.

[_Gazelam]

You are delusional.

Men and women are together exalted. Side by side. That they have different roles is without question. One provides for the home, and one makes it a home. Sounds to me like the man serves the woman, and the family as a whole prospers because of it.

In a Mormon home where the gospel is lived, the women glow and shine, and their children are blessed by parents who love one another. The Spirit of the Lord dwells in such homes and blesses and inspires those withen in a form of love and understanding that could not be felt in any other way.

Cupcake, your attitude determines your altitude, and you need to pull up out of your descent.

[_Ray A]

Cupcake, your attitude determines your altitude, and you need to pull up out of your descent.

Too late - plane crashed.

[_harmony]

You are delusional.

No, she's not. You are the one who has no concept of this subject. You cannot deny her her experience. That she sees life differently than you do is not unusual.

Men and women are together exalted. Side by side. That they have different roles is without question. One provides for the home, and one makes it a home. Sounds to me like the man serves the woman, and the family as a whole prospers because of it.

You don't know that. You think that, you've been taught that, but you don't know that, and you won't know anything about that until after you're dead. To think that anyone knows what the after life really will be like is just downright stupid. No one's died and lived to tell about it. You have faith, but there is no doubt that there are questions. You are the one who is delusional, if you think simply stating that there is no question means there really is no question.

In a Mormon home where the gospel is lived, the women glow and shine, and their children are blessed by parents who love one another. The Spirit of the Lord dwells in such homes and blesses and inspires those withen in a form of love and understanding that could not be felt in any other way.

Hello! In a Mormon home, it's the floor that glows and shines if the woman is doing what she's commanded. Women glow and shine in any environment in which they are allowed to grow and know they are loved. The spirit of the Lord dwells in any home where the parties love each other. And if you don't believe that, you don't understand the concept of the comforter or the Atonement.

Cupcake, your attitude determines your altitude, and you need to pull up out of your descent.

No, wrong again, Gaz. Her heart determines her exaltation, and nothing more.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Thank you, Harmony. I'm most certainly not delusional. I'm acutely aware of womens' roles in Mormonism. I was a female Mormon for thirty-two years, for heaven's sake, I know whereof I speak.

By the way, Gaz, my family is as happy now as we ever were as Mormons. And you know what? I'm still a stay-at-home mother, by choice, and my home is still pleasant and clean and welcoming. I'm still the same faithful wife to my husband that I've been for almost seventeen years now, my daughters are all happy and brilliant and beautiful and headstrong, as they should be, and best of all, they know without a doubt that there are no God-mandated rolls for them to fulfill at the expense of their personal, educational, and professional goals. We're in a good place. The plane is nowhere near crashing.

KA

[_sailgirl7]

Instead of insults and personal attacks I wish we could just talk about the issue with some compassion. If I'm wrong- show me how I'm wrong- don't just tell me I'm wrong.

I don't see the issue as whether or not a woman is happy with or without the priesthood- For I see this as a neverending argument- there will always be people who are happy in their circumstances and those who are not- and the world seems to function in that manner.

Instead, I see the issue like this:

Priesthood=Male (biologically determined)

Priesthood does not = merit, character, skills, talents, spirituality. (nonbiologically determined.)

Authority to act in the name of God= priesthood

Administrative duties of the church= priesthood

Women are sometimes told that they are equal because they are able to be mothers and that since men cannot bear children that they are to hold the priesthood. But this is an incomplete rationale and a weak arguement. Because it is a man who impregnates a woman. A woman cannot impregnate a woman nor can she impregnate a man. This is a biological fact. A woman cannot attain Motherhood without a man. A man is entitled to Fatherhood and to Priesthood- and a woman is entitled to Motherhood(which is caused by a man). So yes a man cannot bear children- but a woman cannot cause the conception of them.

Therefore the authority to act in the name of God and the administrative duties of the church are not determined by merit, character, skill, talent, or spirituality but by biological gender.

Therefore a woman will only be "equal" to a man who holds the priesthood when she is impregnated by a man to achieve motherhood.


And if God chooses who can or cannot act in His name or run His church based on the biological gender that He gave them and not by merit, character, skills, talents, or spirituallity- then I sincerely have to wonder about that.


Please don't attack me- I am far from perfect and I can't write as clearly as most of you guys- these are just my ideas. Thanks for listening.

Sailgirl7

[_Yoda]

You stated your points very well, sailgirl. :)

Gaz? Nehor? Care to comment?

These are the issues I see in Church priesthood hierarchy as well.

There is an interesting article on RfM which is a very honest interpretation of a man's perspective who really did not grasp all of the perks associated with his priesthood role until his wife went through close to a nervous breakdown.

There were some great points in the article that is worth looking at by men and women alike...particularly active Church members:

This is a link to the entire article:

http://www.exmormon.org/Mormon/mormon197.htm

Here are some interesting talking points:

As For Me, I Experienced the Benefits. -- Here's My LDS "Gratitude List":

I'm one of the fortunate ones. For me, Mormonism worked well. I'm very grateful for:

• growing up LDS (fourth-generation),
• participating in LDS sporting events, plays, trips, dances, group projects,
• giving sermons from early boyhood on, learning confident public speaking,
• avoiding tobacco, alcohol, harmful friendships, illicit sex,
• marrying a fourth-generation LDS girl in an LDS temple (Idaho Falls),
• serving a full-time mission,
• raising seven morally clean and healthy LDS children (five daughters and two sons).
• being taught and encouraged by numerous LDS women, my teachers in various church auxiliaries,

Virtually all of the valuable formative influences on me throughout boyhood and teen years were church-related. LDS clergy, doctrine and training taught me to love education, motivating me to achievements I'm sure I never would have reached without it. Examples:

• studied at U. of Illinois, BYU (honors B.A.), U. of Madrid, Middlebury Graduate School (honors M.A.), Stanford, Yale, Georgetown (highest-honors Ph.D.).
• taught at Stanford U., Georgetown U., US Naval Academy, State U. of New York, etc.

I'm certain I wouldn't have developed even a third of that academic zeal on my own. My wife's and my "Mormotivation" was so focused for nineteen years that we honestly didn't even know, until our oldest daughter told us (sparing our pride 'til then), that for years she'd known that our family was eligible for free school lunches and food stamps.

The Costs of Focus: I've described the benefits of focus, but there were heavy costs. As with flashlights, the brightness of a focused beam is offset by the dimness or even darkness around it.

My Wife's Less-Positive List:

Please reread the "gratitude-reasons" above, noticing that they are mostly my reasons, not my wife's. As head-of-family priesthood bearer, I benefited far more from Mormonism than she did. While I proudly acquired degrees, respect, Time and Newsweek write-ups, as well as spousal love and support, my loyal wife accumulated her own list (unexaggerated):

• Internalized the Book of Mormon's demeaning description of her gorgeous brown skin: "dark and loathsome." (She is Samoan)
• Felt second-class and chronically drained,
• Suffered years-long psychosomatic eczema that oozed, blistered, bled and looked like radiation burns.
• Bore eight children (that's 72 months pregnant),
• Raised seven of them to maturity (an eighth died in infancy),
• Hand-sewed all the clothes for our daughters, except thrift-store purchases,
• Did all cleaning up after nine people (often with no washer or dryer at home),
• Prepared almost all meals for nine people,
• Did work-horse shopping and errands for nine people,
• Held a few part-time jobs (out of the house) for extra income,
• Managed all household finances, did all letter writing, bill paying, record keeping, income-tax calculating and filing,
• Practiced spartan self-denial on my grad-student and teacher income,

In Short: She Struggled and Stagnated . . . Enabling Me To Star and Strut.

What astonishes me now is recalling that, at that time, I blithely took for granted everything she was doing. I'm ashamed to admit that I never gave most of it a second thought.

I was too busy exulting in my LDS male role to even perceive her work-horse status, which I accepted as normal status quo, nor did I notice (nor would I have understood) that some Mormon beliefs are direct root causes of serious harm to many women.

And if I had noticed, I'd have assumed I was wrong because, after all, how could God's only true Church directly harm righteous women? That would have been my "unarguably correct" LDS logic.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Very good points sailgirl7 breaking it down into biological makeup vs what we actually make of our selves and the way we act.....I think the saying goes "it's what we do rather than who we are that's important".

PS: Long time no see sailgirl, hope things are good on your end. ;)

[_sailgirl7]

Also- it would seem that my lot in life is predetermined in some very profound ways- since God made me a woman(or did I choose that)- that entails that no matter my dreams, talents, spiritual attainment, skills, merit, or character- I have no choice but to be denied in acting in the name of God or administering in His church. It is predetermined that I cannot- because I am a woman- and if a man gets me pregnant- then and only then I can attain my potential- which also is predetermined. I have no choice in the matter. Everything is irrelevant but anatomy it would seem.

P.S. Hi Bond and Liz- I've been in lurk mode for a while!:)

[_KimberlyAnn]

Sailgirl7, your reply was very well written and I appreciate your points on biology. You're absolutely correct, too. Privilege in Mormonism is based solely on biology, over which we have no control.

Liz, thank you for the link to that amazing article! I've never read it before. It's fantastic and spot on about the role of women in Mormonism. Like the author's wife, I felt so unappreciated. I hope her husband is working hard to make up for the pain his wife endured as an overloaded and under appreciated Mormon wife.

KA