Liars

[_Inconceivable]

Speaking of lying:

5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

(Old Testament | Exodus 23:5)

Totally justified.

Next topic..

(aw come on, lighten up, it's ? tuesday or something)

[_Gadianton]

It doesn't matter how trustworthy, credible, and squeaky clean your background is; if you tell me you went into the forest and saw god, I'm going to think you're a liar. The fact that Joseph Smith was known for dishonesty isn't even central to whether or not we should consider valid this particular truth claim. It's just licked icing on the cake

Oh yeah. In short, this is the one line response to anything FARMS has and ever will put out. And this would be the very response any FARMS contributor would have for anyone not involved in the origins of Mormonism.

[_KimberlyAnn]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

Yes, I think a prophet should live up to high moral standards, which, according to my former Bishop, is quite unfortunate. But I'm a fundamentalist black and white thinker so I just can't help myself, I guess.

KA

KA,

I get accused of being a black and white thinker- a lot. I have been told it's my downfall. My "fundamentalist" attitude is what has led me astray of the church apparently. I just can't accept the lies, distortations, inconsistancies, and morally unacceptable things that are a part of the church doctrine and history. You see, I am the bad one when I point out things that are disturbing. I am "seeking to destroy the church" when I question it. This is what I hear all the time. From people I love- like my husband. Who incidentally, has looked me in the eyes and lied to me more than once. I guess the whole thing about calling "good" evil and evil "good"- is what really gets to me. I mean- if you accuse Joseph Smith of something bad- you are the bad one. I don't understand that. I'm not one of the lucky one's who can retain my faith despite everything. I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, commit adultary, don't even watch rated "R" movies, I stay at home, raise my children, invite neighbors into my home, do my calling (visiting teaching coordinater), etc, but because I am no longer "active" in the church- I am evil. I guess I will go to hell- it can't really be that bad considering.

Sailgirl7,

I think calling apostates "black and white thinkers" is par for the course for Mormons. We're caught in a catch-22. If we weren't stalwart Mormons, we would have left because we couldn't handle living the commandments. But we were stalwart and actually had the nerve to believe what we were taught, so we left because we were "fundamentalists" or "black and white thinkers".

I am a bit of a black and white thinker, but I was trained to be that way by Mormonism. I'm learning to see more and more gray as time goes by, though.

I'm sorry you're dealing with a husband who feels you're tearing down his church. It sounds like you're a good wife. If I were you, I'd stop doing callings and stop going to church and let the chips fall where they may. But, I'm just like that - stubborn and strong-willed - and not everyone else is like me, thank goodness. So perhaps you should keep doing what works for you and your children. I left the church and told my husband I'd never go back and I meant it. After a few very difficult months, he joined me in leaving Mormonism, too. Things still aren't easy, though. Tom became a staunch, fundamentalist Christian and he thinks I'm probably going to hell, but after enough threats from me, he keeps that dumb opinion to himself now.

I wish you the best, Sailgirl7, and I'm glad you're posting on this board! I love the things you have to say.

KA

[_The Nehor]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

No, I don't. I think the standard is the same for everyone.

And if I started lying to my wife (and to the public) about all my other wives, that would be okay? I'd still be a true Christian?

That would be between you and God. No one else knows.

[_CaliforniaKid]

That would be between you and God. No one else knows.

When D. Michael Quinn made the decision to e a practicing homosexual, was that between him and God? Or did other people step in and make a judgment about the situation? Do you feel the Church's decision to excommunicate Quinn was justified? When the Apostle Paul complained about a Corinthian man "having his father's wife," should he have just stayed out of it and allowed the matter to remain between the man and God? Paul's basic response is clear. The man must be removed from the church. Shouldn't Joseph Smith have been removed from the church for marrying other men's wives?

[_why me]

I am afraid that I just don't think that it was a big deal that Joseph Smith lied. I would have lied also. Polygamy was not something that he was proud about. He also knew that it could be a problem for him and for the saints if the practice became known to the public. He lied to save the saints pain from the mobs.

I do not expect perfection from any prophet. And I do believe that Bible prophets were far from perfect. Did not Peter also lie about knowing Christ and he lied three times. Why did he lie? He lied to save his own skin, just lik Joseph Smith. Sorry, KimberlyAnn but your post may go unchallenged on some boards that are for posties but now here.

Oh and by the way, the church has not lied even if Joseph Smith had lied at times in his life about polygamy. If one goes back in time and see the situation that the church was in back then, one can see his reasons for lying. Sorry, but perfection does not exist and yet, this man built cities and formed a good community of people. He also brought with him a good spirit as testified by a congressman who met him.

If you condemn Joseph Smith for lying then you must also condemn Peter and other prophets who were not perfect....

[_why me]

You people don't seriously think we should expect a prophet to live up to some kind of moral standard, do you?

No, I don't. I think the standard is the same for everyone.

And if I started lying to my wife (and to the public) about all my other wives, that would be okay? I'd still be a true Christian?

That would be between you and God. No one else knows.

If one is surrounded by unruly mobs who were thirsting for blood and an excuse to murder, I think that a person may lie and rightly so. Joseph Smith was between a rock and a hard place on this one. He did not like polygamy but felt called by god to practice it. He knew just what it could do to the saints if it came out...and he knew just what danger he was in personally if it did come out. I admire his courage to practice it at all...

[_Blixa]

Sorry, KimberlyAnn but your post may go unchallenged on some boards that are for posties but now here.

Is this the true Adamic language? I can't get a fix on this even with a peepstone.

Oh and by the way, the church has not lied

I'm not sure what you mean here. Even if you mean the-church-as-institution as opposed to individual members, I think you'll still have a hard time explaining this since various configurations of its leadership have prevaricated. Of course, you can always say it was with "good reason..."

[_Ray A]

He couldn't be counted on to tell the truth to his own wife, why should anyone trust him to tell the truth to anyone else?

The same wife who went to her grave believing he was a prophet.

Did she ever say about her husband the things you are now saying?

Do you have an explanation for that? Do you think Emma was a simpleton?

[_Some Schmo]

Sorry, KimberlyAnn but your post may go unchallenged on some boards that are for posties but now here.

Is this the true Adamic language? I can't get a fix on this even with a peepstone.

Oh and by the way, the church has not lied

I'm not sure what you mean here. Even if you mean the-church-as-institution as opposed to individual members, I think you'll still have a hard time explaining this since various configurations of its leadership have prevaricated. Of course, you can always say it was with "good reason..."

I think he may have meant to say, "...but your post may go unchallenged on some boards that are for posties but not here."

I take statements like why me's about the church lying with a grain of salt. In his mind, the church never lied because he believes the lies, so they don't sound like lies to him.