Claiming you know Vs. actually Knowing

[_Mercury]

Merc, can you see love?

Yes I can, otherwise I would not be able to love another person. With all due respect this "can you see love" game is taking an experience we all have had, something more tangible than some hokey man in the sky and turning it into a poorly designed bit of pseudo-logic.

Can you see god? No you cannot. But yes, you can see love. I can see it in the eyes of my child when I come home from work. I can see it in the actions of others. God is nowhere. There is no such thing as God. The sooner one comes to this realization the sooner one becomes able to take control of their lives and not blame or praise a nonexistent entity based on the chance occurrences of life.

[_Mercury]

Hmm, looks like I struck a nerve GIMR.

I'm just stating fact. You meanwhile are playing the victim, something easily done by those who have nothing but the need to rethink their position when the facts are laid out in front of them. Think about this before you fire back an angry reply to my calm, nonthreatening posts.

GIMR, nothing but good things do I wish upon you. Sounds like you have been through a great deal as of late. I meant no offense and I do not understand why you feel I am on the attack. My posts in this thread are not a tirade, they are stating the facts of the matter.

[_moksha]

Knowing does have a much more macho sound to it, does it not? Those who have a girl on each arm at the Y are knowers. Believing is for those geeks in the philosophy department who fret about such fluff as epistemology.

[_Mercury]

Knowing does have a much more macho sound to it, does it not? Those who have a girl on each arm at the Y are knowers. Believing is for those geeks in the philosophy department who fret about such fluff as epistemology.

Good points. The Mormon method of "Knowing" is for those who do not wish to actually trace their belief to evidence given (because there is none). Those who espouse belief are more grounded in, well, what is closer to rational thought.

[_Sam Harris]

Merc, can you see love?

Yes I can, otherwise I would not be able to love another person. With all due respect this "can you see love" game is taking an experience we all have had, something more tangible than some hokey man in the sky and turning it into a poorly designed bit of pseudo-logic.

Can you see god? No you cannot. But yes, you can see love. I can see it in the eyes of my child when I come home from work. I can see it in the actions of others. God is nowhere. There is no such thing as God. The sooner one comes to this realization the sooner one becomes able to take control of their lives and not blame or praise a nonexistent entity based on the chance occurrences of life.

Merc, I'm sorry but you are wrong. You cannot see love. You can only see the effects of it. There goes all your rationale.

[consiglieri]

Hmm, looks like I struck a nerve GIMR.

I'm just stating fact. You meanwhile are playing the victim, something easily done by those who have nothing but the need to rethink their position when the facts are laid out in front of them. Think about this before you fire back an angry reply to my calm, nonthreatening posts.

GIMR, nothing but good things do I wish upon you. Sounds like you have been through a great deal as of late. I meant no offense and I do not understand why you feel I am on the attack. My posts in this thread are not a tirade, they are stating the facts of the matter.

You offended me by claiming that I cling to religion because I'm afraid of death. The only one on this thread and one of the few on this board who really seem unhappy is you. I'm not a victim dear, I'm a survivor. I've been through things that would bring you to your knees. Stop it with all this rationale mess, and admit that deep inside you just wish that all you grew up being told was true were true so you would not have had to suffer so much. Stop punishing others for your pain.

I'm sure you now wish nothing but good things upon me now that I called you on that b***s*** about fearing death. I face it, and you need to watch what you say. I'm not writing a tirade, I'm telling you what I think. You ARE on the attack, you are attacking people who may or may not know you based on how you think they should live their lives, based on what you experienced in your own. That is cowardly and selfish to say the very least.

And you still haven't come up with this great plan that is to be the ultimate alternative to religion. I agree with you, religion sucks. I do not participate in religion, I lead a spiritual life (or in Merc-ish, I sit sucking my thumb and wishing for Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or some other imaginary being to take me away from the horrid reality of life). Religion is indeed a problem. Again, I have nothing to do with it. But to be like you, some haughty individual who claims to have an answer he cannot divulge?

You have no facts, only your worldview...which is not as stable as you may think. Just because you can touch something doesn't mean that your perception of what you are touching is vaild. Your POV is no better than anyone else's here. Stop scoffing at people.

[_Sam Harris]

I wanted to add one more thing. I could actually die soon, the verdict isn't in. I'm not wondering what happens, I'm not sure, and I'm not scared. I'm resigned to what may be. It's called faith. You, Merc, are the person who is in agony. After all that I have been through, I finally have peace, and if it is soon time for me to go at the age of 26 (tomorrow), then so be it, it doesn't matter to me what I see when I leave here, or if I see anything at all. My faith is a tool for learning how to be a good person. It is you that is scared, because you still believe deep down inside in the all or nothing of the LDS church.

Don't joke around with another person's mortality just because you had a s****y Mormon childhood. I had a s****y non-religious childhood which is probably the reason why my body is failing me now, but I'm ok with possibly leaving here because I've spent a quater of a century paying for the sins of my parents. It is what it is. I'm at peace. I hope that some day you will come to experience the same. I have learned to take what joy I can out of what I have left, be it one year or 60. You, however pose a pitiful picture.

Frightened of what comes after death, indeed. Come sit here in my body with this heart that beats like a mouse's and a brain that can't pump blood through it properly at this age and tell me how you would feel. Me, I'm not scared at all.

Wow, GIMR- it sounds like you are going through a lot right now. You sound very brave in face of the unkown. You are rare indeed. I think I've read most of your posts- although I've never chatted directly with you- but I think you are a beautiful person- and if I still lived back in Northern VA- I would want to meet you. You are an inspiration. I hope all is well for you and that you can continue your journey here in health and peace.

Sincerely,
Sailgirl7

Welcome to the board Sailgirl.

I haven't had the time to read many of your posts but I hope to in the upcoming weeks. I'm not sure where you are in your faith journey, but I hope you find love and guidance on the way. It's not an easy trek to take.

I'm at peace with where I am these days. The hardest thing for me as far as my mortality is concerned is the thought of saying good-bye to people I love. Other than that, it is what it is. I can't change what has happened, I can only look towards the future.

Merc kind of set me off, because he said that I clung to religion because I feared what would happen when I die. I'm so past that. One day I'll publish an autobiography, and many like him will understand that no, I'm not a victim, but I've been through my share of continuous hell, and God has brought me through it. I honestly shouldn't be alive at this point. Still, I'm grateful for today and what blessings I do have. I can honestly say I'm a happy person. I could not say that two years ago. It's strange what has to come into your life to make you rearrange your priorities.

You used to live in Northern VA? I'm an Alexandria native. Thanks for your kindness, I do appreciate it. Sometimes I wonder just what impression I make online, though most days I just choose not to care. Human beings will see what they wish, and it's all determined by where we are in life, as far as our walk is concerned. I hope you enjoy the time you spend here.

Cheers,

GIMR

[_Sam Harris]

I wanted to add one more thing. I could actually die soon, the verdict isn't in. I'm not wondering what happens, I'm not sure, and I'm not scared. I'm resigned to what may be. It's called faith. You, Merc, are the person who is in agony. After all that I have been through, I finally have peace, and if it is soon time for me to go at the age of 26 (tomorrow), then so be it, it doesn't matter to me what I see when I leave here, or if I see anything at all. My faith is a tool for learning how to be a good person. It is you that is scared, because you still believe deep down inside in the all or nothing of the LDS church.

Don't joke around with another person's mortality just because you had a s****y Mormon childhood. I had a s****y non-religious childhood which is probably the reason why my body is failing me now, but I'm ok with possibly leaving here because I've spent a quater of a century paying for the sins of my parents. It is what it is. I'm at peace. I hope that some day you will come to experience the same. I have learned to take what joy I can out of what I have left, be it one year or 60. You, however pose a pitiful picture.

Frightened of what comes after death, indeed. Come sit here in my body with this heart that beats like a mouse's and a brain that can't pump blood through it properly at this age and tell me how you would feel. Me, I'm not scared at all.

Bless your heart, whatever kind of faith has brought you this kind of peace is to be applauded.

Hey Lucretia, haven't chatted with you in a while.

I was posting in the celestial forum on another thread, and I spoke about thinking too much, and how I'm now in a situation where no amount of thinking or planning can get me out of this problem. I can't think myself healthy. I can only wait. I had set up this plan for the summer, where by August my debts would be paid off, I'd have $2,000 in the bank, and I'd be ready to leave my mom's house...

Then I got sick. Now all of that's on hold. I can only make plans day by day, week by week. I feel like this is God's way of teaching me that I cannot micromanage life, because if I try I'll only end up disappointed when those miniscule bits don't come out the way I wanted them to. For years I would take stock of my life at my birthday and New Years and lament over all the things I thought I hadn't done...and I never looked at the positive progress I had made.

Much has changed.

I wish that those who left the church and turned away from God altogether (in anger, not those who do so peacefully, there are some) could see that not all believers are idiots. Not all spirituality is a case of co-dependency. But if you try to tell them your survival story, they tell you you're playing pitiful, being the victim. :-) As if they're so free.

One of my favorite trapped religionists said something very wise. Her name is Joyce Meyer. She said there are two types of pain: the pain of change and the pain of staying the same. I think that there are a few folks on here who have chosen the pain of staying the same and it is killing them. I can think of four in particular, two on both the Mormon and Anti-Mormon side. And it's sad.

[_sailgirl7]

Merc kind of set me off, because he said that I clung to religion because I feared what would happen when I die. I'm so past that. One day I'll publish an autobiography, and many like him will understand that no, I'm not a victim, but I've been through my share of continuous hell, and God has brought me through it. I honestly shouldn't be alive at this point. Still, I'm grateful for today and what blessings I do have. I can honestly say I'm a happy person. I could not say that two years ago. It's strange what has to come into your life to make you rearrange your priorities.

You used to live in Northern VA? I'm an Alexandria native. Thanks for your kindness, I do appreciate it. Sometimes I wonder just what impression I make online, though most days I just choose not to care. Human beings will see what they wish, and it's all determined by where we are in life, as far as our walk is concerned. I hope you enjoy the time you spend here.

Cheers,

GIMR

And I'll be the first one to buy an autobiography from you! :) You do sound happy because you know that gratitude is happiness. Thanks for being such a good example of that. Most people haven't learned that yet.

I've lived in Reston, McLean, Great Falls, and Fredericksburg! I really enjoyed it there. Other than the TRAFFIC- that is! ;)
I love old town Alexandria- there are some good resturants there!

I think you're right about people seeing what they choose to see. Afterall don't we usually find what we are looking for?
Take care,

Sailgirl7

[_Mercury]

Merc, can you see love?

Yes I can, otherwise I would not be able to love another person. With all due respect this "can you see love" game is taking an experience we all have had, something more tangible than some hokey man in the sky and turning it into a poorly designed bit of pseudo-logic.

Can you see god? No you cannot. But yes, you can see love. I can see it in the eyes of my child when I come home from work. I can see it in the actions of others. God is nowhere. There is no such thing as God. The sooner one comes to this realization the sooner one becomes able to take control of their lives and not blame or praise a nonexistent entity based on the chance occurrences of life.

Merc, I'm sorry but you are wrong. You cannot see love. You can only see the effects of it. There goes all your rationale.

I'm sorry GIMR but you are wrong. You can see love, which deflates your argument. If you cannot see love then it does not exist.

God is not love. God is pain, misery and oppression. God is racism, mysogyny and pain. God is a false construct you use to identify unknowns you wish were true.

I am not going to convince you of this just as I could not convince a schitzohrenic that he shouldn't cut himself to make "the spirits" go away while on my 2 year waste of time in the service of a corporation masquerading as a religion..