Sethbag wrote:Need I mention the fact that Joseph Smith "translated" the Bible by just thinking about it, and deciding what it ought to have said, and changes it? He also "translated" the words of John the Revelator off a scroll that he didn't possess. All these things are held out by apologists as examples justifying the jargonization of the word "translate", which is ironic, because in fact they stand as just further examples of the b***s*** story of Joseph's "translations".
Putting words in his mouth, I'd suggest that this is why Daniel Peterson is fine with the word "translation" as used in the OP - he knows the word "translation" will simply mean, to the apologists, whatever it needs to mean to support the story and Joseph Smith's prophetic calling.
Speaking of evolving interpretations of the word translation, I am interested in knowing if DCP still agrees with everything he wrote for this Ensign article in 1994 or has he modified his position at all?
In addition to the strong testimony of the Spirit, there is now scholarly evidence that these scriptures truly convey ancient teachings about eternity and accurately reflect the antiquity from which they came.
Trinity wrote:Speaking of evolving interpretations of the word translation, I am interested in knowing if DCP still agrees with everything he wrote for this Ensign article in 1994 or has he modified his position at all?
In addition to the strong testimony of the Spirit, there is now scholarly evidence that these scriptures truly convey ancient teachings about eternity and accurately reflect the antiquity from which they came.
What a joke, "a prayerful reading of its few pages allows the Spirit to bear witness to the book of Abraham’s divine origin" and "In addition to the strong testimony of the Spirit".
I wonder if Dan could add to my signature line about Book of Abraham "scholarly evidence" being a joke in academia? That would be swell!
Notice that he didn't say that these ancient teachings were represented in Egyptian language on the papyrus? They don't have to be for him to consider himself right. Consider the "parallels" that are identified by apologists between things in the Book of Abraham and other things that are found from the ancients, and there you have justification enough for exactly what he said in that article. Take the "Council of the Gods" thing. The Book of Abraham mentions a council of Gods, and sure enough, they find evidence of some kind of council (of whatever nature) of gods in ancient Israel. Presto! That's support for the ancientness of Joseph Smith's teachings. Nevermind that ancient Israelite religion, before its evolution to monotheism, was derived from the polytheistic religion of the area, and so the idea of there being multiple gods is actually to be expected. Just like there were "councils" of the Greek gods on Olympus. Zeus and Athena get together and discuss something, that's a "Divine Council", too.
Go check out the Her Amun threads over on MAD. He suggests all kinds of parallels in his threads on the Book of Abraham facsimiles.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Trinity wrote:And the primary lesson manuals reflect this as well:
Some of the information revealed to Joseph Smith while he was studying the Bible is published in the Pearl of Great Price as the book of Moses. Also published in the Pearl of Great Price is the book of Abraham, Joseph Smith’s inspired translation of some ancient Egyptian writings.
In the late 1820s an Italian explorer named Antonio Lebolo obtained eleven mummies from an ancient tomb in Egypt. When Lebolo died the mummies were shipped to the United States. A man named Michael Chandler came into possession of the mummies in 1833. He opened the coffins (the boxes the mummies were in) and was disappointed not to find jewels or valuable treasures. Attached to some of the bodies of the mummies were linen cloths containing rolls of papyrus, a type of paper made from plants. These papyrus rolls had Egyptian writing on them. Mr. Chandler took the rolls to Pennsylvania, where he tried to find some educated men to tell him about the writings, but even the most educated of these men were only able to understand a little of the writings.
Mr. Chandler decided to travel around the country showing people the mummies, and in the summer of 1835 he came to Kirtland, Ohio. There he met with Joseph Smith, who told him that the writings could be interpreted. Later some friends of the Prophet bought four mummies and the rolls of papyrus from Mr. Chandler. Joseph Smith studied the letters and grammar of the Egyptian language, and then, with the help of the Holy Ghost, he translated the writings on the papyrus rolls. The writings Joseph Smith translated tell about the ancient prophet Abraham and are now published as the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History
I have wondered why, if it were true, the Book of Abraham would be found with Egyptian mummies in the first place.
Egypt had its own set of deities and you would think that logically anything that they chose to bury with their dead would reflect those beliefs.
I always thought that the Hebrews were slaves of Egypt. It just doesn't make sense that something of value to slaves would be buried with someone they chose for mummification.
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
Joseph Smith studied the letters and grammar of the Egyptian language
Indeed he did study and we have a record of this work in the KEP. During this time the prophet's mind was opened up to a system of astronomy known only to the ancients. He was filled with the Spirit of revelation while the characters found on the papyrus symbolized the efforts of his work. The translation was wholly spiritual in nature using symbols as a means to identify concepts. This is the first time we have ever seen this practice put into motion. Joseph was a translation pioneer.
The Alphabet & Grammar should be revered by all LDS people as a sacred work given under the direction of the prophet and his appointed assistants. It has been preserved by the First Presidency of the Church. How wonderful it would be if the academic school teachers of the LDS arena were to accept this work on faith alone without the aid of modern validation or methods. If the school teachers will begin to exercise faith in this work then they will begin to understand. Otherwise, they have eyes that see not, ears that hear not, and are unable to rejoice in the truth.
Paul O
There's just one problem with all this .... the characters he translated don't mean what he said they mean. So, In other words, he made them up.
"What does God need with a starship?" - Captain James T. Kirk
Most people would like to be delivered from temptation but would like it to keep in touch. - Robert Orben
Joseph Smith studied the letters and grammar of the Egyptian language
Indeed he did study and we have a record of this work in the KEP. During this time the prophet's mind was opened up to a system of astronomy known only to the ancients. He was filled with the Spirit of revelation while the characters found on the papyrus symbolized the efforts of his work. The translation was wholly spiritual in nature using symbols as a means to identify concepts. This is the first time we have ever seen this practice put into motion. Joseph was a translation pioneer.
The Alphabet & Grammar should be revered by all LDS people as a sacred work given under the direction of the prophet and his appointed assistants. It has been preserved by the First Presidency of the Church. How wonderful it would be if the academic school teachers of the LDS arena were to accept this work on faith alone without the aid of modern validation or methods. If the school teachers will begin to exercise faith in this work then they will begin to understand. Otherwise, they have eyes that see not, ears that hear not, and are unable to rejoice in the truth.
Paul O
There's just one problem with all this .... the characters he translated don't mean what he said they mean. So, In other words, he made them up.
Well, Casper the friendly Holy Ghost made him do it.
Trinity wrote:Speaking of evolving interpretations of the word translation, I am interested in knowing if DCP still agrees with everything he wrote for this Ensign article in 1994 or has he modified his position at all?
I'm aware of nothing that would lead me to modify my position as stated in that article.
Trinity wrote:Speaking of evolving interpretations of the word translation, I am interested in knowing if DCP still agrees with everything he wrote for this Ensign article in 1994 or has he modified his position at all?
I'm aware of nothing that would lead me to modify my position as stated in that article.
Good boy, tow the line.
However, we all know your article would be a laughing stock if you attempted to foist it upon any non Mormon scholars.