Believing members: If it weren't true, would u want to know?

[_Polygamy Porter]

Would you want to know if Mormonism is nothing more than just another christian based religion?

Basically, this is how I view it. I think that's why I don't fall into the mold you try to put me into.

I believe in Jesus Christ and his teachings. My feeling is that if I choose to worship him, it doesn't matter which Church I attend to do that.

I have extenuating family circumstances which makes it much easier for me to attend Church and be involved to some degree within the LDS culture. I don't have the luxury you have, PP. My husband is very TBM and is not going to leave the Church. We have been through hell and back so I'm not looking for a divorce. I'm sorry if I'm not the purist you would like me to be, but I have to do what works for me.

I come here to talk about issues involving the Church I can't do anywhere else.

You seem to think that I'm a hypocrite for doing that. OK, whatever.

Well shizzle ma' fizzle! I did not know that.

Either I never read that or you did not post it.

Basically, you have no choice but to continue to attend TSCC.

I understand now. I will remove the title of jackmo from you.

My apologies.


Too bad your husband cannot see the truth.

[_asbestosman]

So we could ask the following questions:

1. Would you want to know if smith's first vision actually happened as it has been taught?

2. Would you want to know if smith actually translated ancient records?

3. Would you want to know if god did not ever speak to smith and all that he claimed was from god in the D&C was only from him and his associates?

4. Would you want to know if smith did not but just copied and embellished other works and ideas for his day?

5. Would you want to know if smith lied to the membership about polygamy?

6. Would you want to know if smith translated some papyrus in doctrines that you align yourself with?

7. Would you want to know if Mormonism is nothing more than just another christian based religion?

I would answer yes, but I don't think all the answers to those questions are as damning as you probably think they are. We know, for example, that there is more to teh First Vision than is generally taught, but the extra things hardly seem to negate the experience in my opinion. Rather I think they add more details. Similarly, it is indispuatble that Joseph lied about polygamy. However, I don't think this in and of itself is proof that the church is false. Even Abraham lied about Sarah.

And so on and so forth.

The more important questions to me are about whether the LDS church is indeed God's church with His power and authority to help us return to Him. I'm more interested in whether Joseph Smith talked with God than I am about all the details. I'm more concerned about whether the doctrines in the D&C are the word of God than I am about whether people had similar ideas back in the day--why can't others also have inspiration from God even if they aren't officially authorized to relay those commandments to the church/world?

[_Polygamy Porter]

We know, for example, that there is more to the First Vision than is generally taught, but the extra things hardly seem to negate the experience in my opinion. Rather I think they add more details.

Typical mo'pologetic defense.
Add more details? What smith wrote himself in 1832 and what he had his scribe write in 1838 are completely different. Additionally and coincidentally, 1838 was the year when Joe's little cult nearly dissolved. So he "adjusted" things to better align the theology in an attempt to retain members and attract new ones.

Similarly, it is indisputable that Joseph lied about polygamy. However, I don't think this in and of itself is proof that the church is false. Even Abraham lied about Sarah.

And so on and so forth.

Leave the least correct book out of the discussion. Many leaders have said the Book of Mormon and TSCC can stand on its own. So for the love of the twelve, stop trying to prop up LDS Inc with the least correct book, the Bible.

So with that, you are stating that smith was above his own doctrines and laws as well as laws of the land.

Additionally, why would god be afraid of the his kids on earth? Last time they did not do what his supposed prophet said, he put a cap in all their asses. So why would he command smith to lie about polygamy? Roll it out prophet boy and if they don't accept it, I will put a cap in their ass!

The more important questions to me are about whether the LDS church is indeed God's church with His power and authority to help us return to Him. I'm more interested in whether Joseph Smith talked with God than I am about all the details.

WTF? So you really don't care what wisdom and doctrine god had for Joe to pass on to god chosen people, you are only curious if he only spoke with him?

I'm more concerned about whether the doctrines in the D&C are the word of God than I am about whether people had similar ideas back in the day--

So it does not bother you that many of smiths supposed divine revelations in the D&C were common ideas in society that smith merely copied?

WOW:1829 Temperance movement led by Sylvester Graham
Degrees of glory: Edward Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell

And shall we discuss the thousands of other changes that were made to the D&C? If something is divine why would it need to be changed?

why can't others also have inspiration from God even if they aren't officially authorized to relay those commandments to the church/world?

Hello? There were plenty of others back in the day that spouted off similar ideas AND relayed them to the world. RLDS? Strangites? Seventh Day Adventists?

[_Yoda]

Well shizzle ma' fizzle! I did not know that.

Either I never read that or you did not post it.

Basically, you have no choice but to continue to attend TSCC.

I understand now. I will remove the title of jackmo from you.

My apologies.


Too bad your husband cannot see the truth.

Yes, PP. I have posted this before. I guess that's why I've been so frustrated with your posts regarding me. I thought you knew.

Thanks for the apology. I've been a little testy lately, so I'm probably taking things way too personally, anyway. I'm under a lot of pressure at work (6 week evaluations due next week for the classes I'm teaching) and I'm trying to get a daughter ready to go to school out of state.

Hubby won't see the truth. He has started to look at the Church with a more critical eye, and knows how I feel about it, though.

I do believe in Christ, and in His sacrifices that He made for us. I try to take the good principles that the LDS Church teaches, and leave the bad ones behind. That's really about all I can do right now.

I've been able to find inner peace in doing this.

[_ajax18]

Honestly I probably don't want to know. It's pretty disappointing. in my opinion Christianity and every other religion has just as many problems with it as Mormonism does. Many of the problems are similar. So no, turning to Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam, Eastern philosophies doesn't seem very satisfying to me either. I don't find any comfort in atheism at all. If you don't need comfort in death or meaning in suffering, than I suppose you don't need to consider these things. I do.

I love the prophet Joseph Smith and still hold strongly to some of his ideas:

1. Mormon polytheism and the rejection of the Trinity.
2. A leader who like Jesus was willing to go to the front of the battle. A leader who got down and suffered with the people he led. Some of his revelations even chastised himself.
3. A believer in eternal fairness, but a forgiving man as well. Brigham Young was not near the prophet Joseph Smith was, but in all fairness I'm sure Bro. Brigham would have admitted the same. We haven't had anyone close to Joseph Smith since he died.
4. He removed a lot of the old notions that made sex synonomous with evil. He set proper boundaries for it.
5. The infinity of the universe and the law of conservation of matter, the rejection of creatio ex nihilo.
6. Bringing back baptism for the dead.
7. I don't believe Bro. Joseph intended the church to have a paid clergy either. Living stipends maybe, but not one that exalts its leaders above the population like Catholicism does.
8. Pulling sticks and the basic idea that, "It was ok to have fun. It's ok to be physical and enjoy what your body can do. One need not be serious 24/7. It's ok to smile. It's good to laugh. I think the MTC leaders could use a lesson on that one.
9. I still see plural marriage as potentially the most happy state a man can achieve in eternity.
10. A universal resurrection.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I attribute a lot of this to Joseph Smith. Now whether the Church is still the way Joseph would have wanted it, maybe not. How to deal with evil that comes from within it and from the leadership is what I struggle to deal with now. Yet on a very deep level I always be Mormon and a believer in the prophet Joseph Smith.

[_Polygamy Porter]

4. He removed a lot of the old notions that made sex synonomous with evil. He set proper boundaries for it.

You had better hunker down behind your flame guards with that statement.

Please expound on that.

Sex with a teen aged girl is not sinful?
I'd suppose you support Warren Jeffs then?

Sex with another man's legal wife is not sinful?

Cheating on your wife is not a sin?

Boundaries? What boundaries?

[_ajax18]

Sex with a teen aged girl is not sinful?

No I don't necessarily think because a girl is in her teens it's sinful. If they were married, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If they weren't, seeing as I don't know the story, I might have a harder time dealing with that.

I'd suppose you support Warren Jeffs then?

I don't know much about Warren Jeffs. He seems pretty authroitarian and seems to keep his people in line by fear, and to a large extent limits their agency through family connections.

Sex with another man's legal wife is not sinful?

If it was behind the man's back, I'd have a hard time dealing with that. If it was an open arrangement that everyone agreed to, I don't see the sin.

Cheating on your wife is not a sin?

If you're calling polygamy cheating than no. Once again, lying to Emma about it is harder for me to reconcile. I really don't know the story exactly. Yet if he were upfront with her about the revelation and she had the choice to accept or reject it, I don't see the sin. To say that she just wasn't ready to hear it and that's why he lied is harder for me to understand. Yet, as mentioned above, we did agree that lying wasn't an absolute. It could have been the right thing to do.

I understand why this would bother you, but like the rest of the Clintonian fans, if the best you can come up with against Joseph Smith is a few sexual misdeeds, I don't see how that negates the other things I listed that make me love Joseph Smith as a leader, far above any other religious leader I've encounterd, except maybe Jesus himself.

[_Tarski]

If it was behind the man's back, I'd have a hard time dealing with that.

Well, then you better start having the hard time because the husbands didn't know.

If it was an open arrangement that everyone agreed to, I don't see the sin

Neeto. Free luv is OK as long as everybody is down with it. :)

yeah baby

[_ajax18]

Neeto. Free luv is OK as long as everybody is down with it. :)

I really don't see how contemporary America's moral standard of "consenting adults" is much higher.

It does seem like this is all I ever hear about when people attack Joseph Smith. I listed how many things I liked about him?

Secondly, all I've seen you guys do is tear down a religion. Where does that leave us? What is our belief system now? I haven't seen very many good alternatives offered. That's a big reason a lot of TBMs just don't want to know.

[_asbestosman]

So with that, you are stating that smith was above his own doctrines and laws as well as laws of the land.

Nope. Joseph may have had faults. In fact he certainly did.

Additionally, why would god be afraid of the his kids on earth? Last time they did not do what his supposed prophet said, he put a cap in all their asses.

And yet the Lamanites were the ones who prevailed over the Nephites in the end.

So why would he command smith to lie about polygamy?

I never said God did command it. True, I mentioned Abraham and I think it possible that lying may have been justified, but I also think it possible that it was wrong to lie in this case. Either way I still think it probable that Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

So you really don't care what wisdom and doctrine god had for Joe to pass on to god chosen people, you are only curious if he only spoke with him?

The message is indeed an important detail, but it is secondary to knowing whether God really spoke to Joseph. When I mentioned "all the details" I was referring to whether there were also angels in the Vision or if it was limited to the Father and the Son. I find the version in the PoGP to contain the important details (although perhaps a few extras for the purpose of background like dates, etc).

So it does not bother you that many of smiths supposed divine revelations in the D&C were common ideas in society that smith merely copied?

You are assuming that Joseph Smith copied those ideas. Both may have come from another source (God), or perhaps the idea sparked interest which made Joseph inquire and receive further knowledge.

And shall we discuss the thousands of other changes that were made to the D&C? If something is divine why would it need to be changed?

Because humans (including prophets) make spelling, grammer, and even mistakes of clarity.

why can't others also have inspiration from God even if they aren't officially authorized to relay those commandments to the church/world?

Hello? There were plenty of others back in the day that spouted off similar ideas AND relayed them to the world. RLDS? Strangites?

We share the Book of Mormon in common (or at least we did). That we agree on many of issues is no says nothing about those claims since they all have the same origin in the restoration.

Seventh Day Adventists?

I know very little about them other than that they are considered to be a restorationist church like the LDS. Why couldn't God have been trying to prepare people for the restoration? I sometimes wonder if that isn't why the New Apostolic church started--God telling people that He would soon send His apostles (which He did, but not in the way many expected so they formed their own church).