so, what happened today in Sacrament meeting?

Post by **_barrelomonkeys** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:46 am

Ray, I try to do my part in the world. That's all I'll say.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:51 am

Trinity wrote:Speak for yourself. I make a fair amount of money. I live in a modest home. I do not have any outstanding debt. I contributed 50K last year to charitable (nonLDS) organizations to help alleviate the suffering in the world and will likely do the same amount this year. I even pay fast offerings in my area because I know the funds will go directly to local human needs as opposed to corporate billion dollar mall profit needs. I am repulsed by conspicuous consumers who are so self-centered that their awareness of suffering extends only to the high cost of getting the oil replaced in their BMW. I am unfortunately surrounded by Mormon millionaires who parade around in these "blessings from God" and see their material wealth as divine entitlement. They make me grumpy.

My 13 year old son recently asked for me to pull $200 from his account to donate to World Vision after seeing me do some research online with regards to microloans. My 16 year old donated $50 to the recent One.org American Idol campaign to help fund medication to eliminate malaria.

We are not all flaming hypocrites. Some of us can, and do put our money and energy where our mouth is.

When are you moving to Africa, like Albert Schweitzer did, to help them, and live like they did? Like your comfort zone too much? Brag all you like, but are you prepared to LIVE in their conditions?

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 am

barrelomonkeys wrote:Ray, I try to do my part in the world. That's all I'll say.

I don't doubt it, but there's nothing wrong with someone praying for lost keys while others are starving to death, anymore than there's something wrong with someone watching TV while others are starving to death? There's only so much we can do. Do you think rich people are not entitled to blessings from God merely because they are rich? Consider the teaching of Jesus that God allows the rain to fall on both the just, and the unjust. I like God, because he seems free of human prejudice.

Post by **_Sethbag** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:23 am

Ray, this thread wasn't started to discuss whether or not it's hypocritical not to sell all our stuff and move to Africa with Albert Schweizer. It's about how ridiculous it is for white, middle-class Americans to imagine that some God up in heaven, who created this universe of billions of billions of stars and solar systems, and planets, and whatnot, prompted them to find their car keys, and meanwhile the "weightier matters" are left undone by God, like preventing the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people. When you think about it, that's just nuts.

And furthermore, my relating the story was meant to be somewhat humorous, because the "God told me where my keys were" testimonkey meeting story is way beyond cliché here on this board. I thought it was funny to actually hear one again, for real.

Post by **_CaliforniaKid** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:28 am

An old pastor of mine swore that every single time he stays in a hotel he prays for a room upgrade, and he always gets one.

Post by **_Sethbag** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:34 am

When I was a kid, maybe 4 or 5 years old, I saw a movie on TV about some fighting between some old French Foreign Legion troops and some arabs of some sort, like in Morocco or Algeria back in the 1800s or something. I really thought those rifles were neat. I went outside and knelt down on the ground and prayed, sincerely, for God to give me one of those rifles. Kinda funny, really. Not surprisingly, God didn't give me that rifle.

But my testimonkey is secure, because God did allow that episode to stick with me, and I subsequently have bought four or five other rifles of my own as an adult. See? Prayer answered, only in God's own due time, and in his own way! Hallelujah!

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:45 am

Sethbag wrote:Ray, this thread wasn't started to discuss whether or not it's hypocritical not to sell all our stuff and move to Africa with Albert Schweizer. It's about how ridiculous it is for white, middle-class Americans to imagine that some God up in heaven, who created this universe of billions of billions of stars and solar systems, and planets, and whatnot, prompted them to find their car keys, and meanwhile the "weightier matters" are left undone by God, like preventing the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands of people. When you think about it, that's just nuts.

Obviously you didn't get my point, which is relevant to your OP. It was about finding "car keys", and why should "the God of the Universe" be concerned about this. Why shouldn't he? Do you discriminate in how you treat your children by how much money they have? Or where they live? If one child has a tootache, and another debt problems, do you say to hell with one, and not the other? Let's say one of your sons has the talent of Babe Ruth. Would you treat him differently than you do the one who doesn't? Good parents are not known to be partisan. Should God? Should God say: "You are rich, therefore you need no more blessings"?

Sethbag wrote:And furthermore, my relating the store was meant to be somewhat humorous, because the "God told me where my keys were" testimonkey meeting story is way beyond cliché here on this board. I thought it was funny to actually hear one again, for real.

Maybe you don't realise this, Seth, but your reference to "testimonkey" shows that you have no respect for others' beliefs. It is sarcasm of Porter and Mercury style.

I'm just wondering how much lower you will go?

Post by **_Sethbag** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:57 am

What exactly does "testimony" mean coming from the mouth of a kid so young they don't even know how to tie their own shoe? They couldn't tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, or read the word "cat", yet they "know" that Joseph Smith is a true prophet, that the Book of Mormon is true, etc. Give me a break. That's a testimonkey if ever a situation justifed that term. I'm sorry if the term offends, but fostering an environment where little children are encouraged to stand up and regurgitate crap that they don't even understand, in order both to please their parents, and also plant the seeds of indoctrination into the child's head, so that as they grow older they come to believe they really do "know" something, partly because they've been saying it for so long, well that's offensive to me. If you don't like it, fine. That's creating a positive feedback loop where the positive sensation of having pleased one's parents, and done the socially expected thing, condition the child to believe in that thing, because the positive experience, and positive feelings, are associated with that thing.

And as far as God not treating his kids any differently, that's fine, and I get your point. My point, however, is that God doesn't seem to be watching over and helping his kids around the world, both rich and poor. We folks here in the USA get to find our car keys, or little dog Foofoo that ran away, or whatever, but that African kid's arm still got chopped off by a tribesman from an opposing tribe with a machete. And his neighbor got washed away by a tidal wave, and his parents are dead from AIDS, and so on and so forth. But yeah, that little AIDS-ridden, starving, one-armed African orphan child, if he loses his little stone trinket, can pray to God, and the Holy Ghost will probably show him where it is. That's just great news, and sure proof, if ever there was a need for any, of God's existence.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:43 am

Sethbag wrote:What exactly does "testimony" mean coming from the mouth of a kid so young they don't even know how to tie their own shoe? They couldn't tell you that 2 + 2 = 4, or read the word "cat", yet they "know" that Joseph Smith is a true prophet, that the Book of Mormon is true, etc. Give me a break. That's a testimonkey if ever a situation justifed that term.

Seth, you have really become dead to spiritual things, haven't you? Consider the poem of Wordsworth, "heaven lies about us in our infancy". Are you so sure that little children cannot know these things? This is why I have such a low opinion of exmos. They know everything, yet they know nothing. They are as fools, and the Book of Mormon got it right when, quoting Isaiah, it said, "forasmuch as this people draw near to me with their mouth, but their heart is FAR from me.......".

You have lost it, my friend. You and beastie, and all your "learning". In a spiritual sense you have almost become retarded, and I'm sorry if that offends beastie, but there is no better way to describe it.

Good night. Life goes on, and the packing, and the move goes on. Best wishes.

Post by **_dartagnan** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:07 pm

I don't see this as justification for making kids go up and bear a testimony they don't have. I mean these poor kids are conditioned to follow the party line as early as age three. I have seen this done on too many occassions to count. The Mom or Dad, or both, go up and whisper the testimony to the kid and the kid repeats it into the microphone.

It simply won't do to say they are kids and therefore they know the Church is true because kids have the spirit. This is circular reasoning that begs the question and still doesn't avoid the conditioning methods that have become institutionalized in the Church.

This is a major issue I have in the Church.