Mormons feel they are elite in a sense I have never felt as a Baptist or Catholic.
And yes, it does take a great deal of humility to get to the point where you are able to admit that you may be wrong about your most cherished, valued belief. This is why it amazes me when believers say people often fall away from the church due to pride. It's the opposite of pride, actually.
What is evidence of greater pride; conceding that one is wrong, or refusing to consider the possibility that one is wrong? I find the "pride" accusation laughably silly.
When accused of arrogance by my siblings, my standard response is, "Which of us claims that the other will be punished for eternity for not believing as he does?"
I, too, am accused of pride and arrogance, not only by my Mormon family members, but also by my Evangelical Christian husband. The Mormons and Christians in my family do not accuse one another of arrogance, yet they all hurl that label at me. It's arrogance and pride that keep me from believing Mormonism. It's arrogance and pride that keep me from believing the Bible is the inerrant word of God. No matter what I cannot believe, it's arrogance that keeps me from believing it.
I don't see the situation for a person thinking of himself or herself as Christain as changing the point made by Seth.
Just replace Mormon by Christian and JW's by Muslim. Then read it again with a few obvious and minor changes.
The point is that with religion, one finds oneself immersed in a situation where considering that one's belief system is not valid is impossible except in some abstract and formal way. If the question were a scientific one, then one would not fear reading opposing views and contrary evidence.
But with religion, this is implicitly or explicitly verboten.
For example, someone on this board just told me that thier spuse would not even touch a book that challenged biblical fundamentalism.
guy sajer wrote:
What is evidence of greater pride; conceding that one is wrong, or refusing to consider the possibility that one is wrong? I find the "pride" accusation laughably silly.
When accused of arrogance by my siblings, my standard response is, "Which of us claims that the other will be punished for eternity for not believing as he does?"
What could be more arrogant than actually believing that people who hold different beliefs than ourselves will be eternally punished for it?
Saying believing it is arrogant is like saying it is arrogant for someone to tell someone not to step in front of a train if the person doing the stepping believes it is perfectly safe. People can be arrogant and be right and they can be arrogant and be wrong.
The Nehor wrote:guy sajer wrote:
What is evidence of greater pride; conceding that one is wrong, or refusing to consider the possibility that one is wrong? I find the "pride" accusation laughably silly.
When accused of arrogance by my siblings, my standard response is, "Which of us claims that the other will be punished for eternity for not believing as he does?"
What could be more arrogant than actually believing that people who hold different beliefs than ourselves will be eternally punished for it?
It's possible to believe that without being arrogant about it. The key is to forget all that 'special' crap and realize that you deserve exactly the same fate.
Saying believing it is arrogant is like saying it is arrogant for someone to tell someone not to step in front of a train if the person doing the stepping believes it is perfectly safe. People can be arrogant and be right and they can be arrogant and be wrong.
Assume for a moment that we're right and that what we say could keep you out of hell for a time. Is it arrogance to share that or worry about it? If I believe it (as I do) I would have to be a monster not to share it.
The Nehor wrote:Assume for a moment that we're right and that what we say could keep you out of hell for a time. Is it arrogance to share that or worry about it? If I believe it (as I do) I would have to be a monster not to share it.
Jason Bourne wrote:ozemc wrote:Jason Bourne wrote:dartagnan wrote:What I always find interesting is that the apologists and other LDS like to think they are just like any other Church that claims to be true, but there is a subtle difference. Mormons feel they are elite in a sense I have never felt as a Baptist or Catholic. Mormons are the only true Church, which means everyone else is "wrong" about their religion. It is also a New Religious Movement which many people grasp onto for psychological and sociological purposes. It gives people a sense of purpose and good feeling, without any concern for whether or not its truth claims are true. This is a recipe for arrogance and confirmation bias. This elite status is what sets them apart from other faiths. Therefore, there can be nothing "wrong" about Mormonism or else it is just like the rest. Whenever flaws are pointed out in the Church, the usual rationalization kicks in. You know, things like "the Church is still perfect even if the people aren't."
It took me a while to realize how dumb this comment really is because the membership = the Church. The Church is only as perfect as those who comprise it.
Don't Catholics believe they are the one true church with the priesthood and the Vicar of Christ? Didn't the pope just emphasize this? Don't baptists believe they have the truth? Oh sure other True Christians can be found in other places but you have to be Christian-then you are saved, a child of God, and only then. The rest are toast. Why would this not generate just as much elitism as is found in the LDS idea of being the true church?
I think the difference, Jason, is that, with the exception of the Catholic church, most other churches I've been in, from Lutheran, to Methodist, to Disciples of Christ (which I am now), all seem accepting as long as you have a belief in Christ. None that I've experienced indicated that I had to join their church to be saved.
I am a bit confused over your statement that you have to be a Christian? Isn't that the point of going to a Christian church? I mean, you probably wouldn't go if you weren't one, right?
It is my understanding, and belief, that all those who believe in Christ are part of His church, not just any specific denomination.
A "saved" Christian believes they have preferential standing before God, are his children and others are not will be in heaven, will judge the non Christians along with the apostles, others will be in Hell. THis is quite elitist.