What Joseph Hath Wrought

[_wenglund]

Wade -

Tell us which specific parts were "vile".

If it is not self-evident, then there would be no value in my doing so because it is unlikely that you would see it that way. Besides, I don't want to detract from the latter and, to me, more important point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

Clearly runtu made statements critical of the LDS church, but I see nothing that could rightfully be labeled "vile". You are unwilling to help us understand your viewpoint, which is your choice, but my reaction to this is that you are so enmeshed with your belief system that any criticism feels "vile", despite your former protests to the contrary.

[_Yong Xi]

Driving around Utah County, I'm struck by the way the LDS church dominates the environment with its presence. Churches are everywhere, with some sharing a lot. BYU keeps growing, and a rather ostentatious (some might say monstrous) Hinckley alumni building stands guard over the previously low-key (at least by Mormon standards) entrance to campus. (Does it bother anyone else that the alumni building is named for someone who never attended the university?)

At the store, I overheard two cashiers discussing a cannery assignment. My coworker talks about his calling in the bishopric. In short, the church is in everything.

This morning I noticed that several flags were at half mast, and I wondered who had died. I remembered that James E. Faust had passed away, and I had to assume the flags were meant for him. I have nothing against him (in fact, from everything I know about him, he was a good and decent man in every sense), but I thought how peculiar it was that in any other region of the United States (and the world, for that matter) James E. Faust was an obscure leader of an insignificant religion. But here he was accorded the honor of a president or world leader.

Mormonism barely registers in the consciousness of at least 95% of the world's population, and of the remaining 5%, most don't know much about it except the obvious polygamy.

When I lived in Texas and was a believing Mormon, it bothered me to no end that people would come from Utah and announce their arrival as if they were the ward's saviors. "It's so great to be out here in the mission field where we can really make a difference," they would say. It was as if they assumed that Utah really was the center, and everything else was peripheral and dependent on the largesse of Zion.

I knew back then that such was not the case. We managed just fine on our own, and most people greeted new Utah arrivals with a knowing smile and often a roll of the eyes.

But what would Joseph Smith think about today's church, which in so many ways has to have surpassed his wildest dreams, but has done so largely by abandoning much of Joseph's teachings, such as they were. Ideas that were central to Joseph's theology are now dismissed as mere couplets without meaning. There's no more talk of consecration, other than the lip service in the temple. Even Brigham Young's self-supporting economic system has largely been jettisoned. Welfare farms and dairies have been sold, and the church buys its raw materials from outsiders, a damnable heresy in the days of the Reformation.

These days the church is larger in numbers but much smaller in scope and vision. Its grand visions seem to have more to do with building more empty and unused temples than with preparing for the coming of the Lord. Terry Eagleton's prophecy has come true: it's no longer a revolutionary movement but has reduced itself to forbidding the word "f*ck."

Again, I wonder what Joseph would have thought. Part of me thinks he would get a huge laugh out of it. A bad hoax (and Mormonism is a bad hoax if there ever were one) has wrought an economic and religious empire that claims the allegiance of millions of people worldwide. Maybe he would have laughed, but I'm guessing he'd be more interested in getting his cut of the cash and his share of the MIA Maids.

I am sorry that your return to Utah has engender such vile sentiments in you towards your former faith--at least enough to motivate you to share it in such harsh ways publically here.

It causes me to wonder, though, like with so many of Kimberlyann's posts, what value you expect to derive in saying these kinds of denegrating things. Do you suppose it will somehow make you a better person, or improve conditions generally? Is it born of love and intended to encourage mutual respect?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I have been contemplating writing an essay (for posting here) entitled, "The Mormon Eunuch: Ecclesiastical Castration and the Feminization of LDS Men".

I am hoping to use Wade's touchy feely posts as source material.

Now if only I could find the time and balls to do it.

[_harmony]

[snip]
Again, I wonder what Joseph would have thought. Part of me thinks he would get a huge laugh out of it. A bad hoax (and Mormonism is a bad hoax if there ever were one) has wrought an economic and religious empire that claims the allegiance of millions of people worldwide. Maybe he would have laughed, but I'm guessing he'd be more interested in getting his cut of the cash and his share of the MIA Maids.

Wade's unsubstantiated criticisms notwithstanding, I see nothing vile in this post. I see a man who mourns the loss of something he once loved. I see a man with his eyes opened to the nature of unrestrained power and how it corrupts everything it touches. I see a man who sees other men, not as they would have liked to be seen, and certainly not as they showed the world, but as they actually were and are. And it still hurts him that those he trusted with his eternal soul sought only to control him, not exalt him.

As for Joseph, I think he would be proud of what his organization has become, be impressed by the power it has over the members and the influence it has on the political scene, and publically would heep praise on the leadership. He would never mourn doctrines now gone, since he would know they were pulled from thin air anyway. And since he would know it was based on lies, deceit, lust, and power, he'd be laughing in his beer. He would have done the expediant thing, not the right thing.

[_KimberlyAnn]

I have been contemplating writing an essay (for posting here) entitled, "The Mormon Eunuch: Ecclesiastical Castration and the Feminization of LDS Men".

I am hoping to use Wade's touchy feely posts as source material.

Now if only I could find the time and balls to do it.

LMAO! I hope you find the balls somewhere because I'm dying to read that essay! You may be able to find a pair in the secret church vault. I suspect that's where they're keeping them.

KA

[_Sethbag]

I expect he would weep for Zion and ask, "How long?"

You mean, how long can he keep up the charade? I'm sure that's what you meant. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[_Yoda]

I am sorry that your return to Utah has engender such vile sentiments in you towards your former faith--at least enough to motivate you to share it in such harsh ways publically here.

It causes me to wonder, though, like with so many of Kimberlyann's posts, what value you expect to derive in saying these kinds of denegrating things. Do you suppose it will somehow make you a better person, or improve conditions generally? Is it born of love and intended to encourage mutual respect?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't see anything "harsh" or "vile" in Runtu's post. I agree with Harmony. I see his post as a pained reflection of a lost way of life. It is a post filled more with hurt and melancholy than anger.

In answer to your second series of questions, Wade, yes, I think that Runtu's posting his reflections will aid in making him a better person. Writing things down and discussing feelings is a form of recognition. How can you move forward if you can't recognize where you are? Posting what he is feeling is freeing, and allows him to not stay mired in his current state. He can discuss his feelings with friends, and move forward. Yes, it will improve his conditions generally, because he can't talk about how he is feeling at home. It will only upset his spouse. He has to have some outlet to talk about this stuff. He's already been diagnosed with depression, so keeping things buried inside is not a good idea.

Are his comments born of love and intended to encourage mutual respect? Yes, I believe they are. Runtu has never struck me as someone with a hidden agenda. His motives are very pure. He is simply reaching out to his friends. As far as mutual respect....Runtu has never personally attacked anyone for their belief. His wife is still LDS. He respects her right to believe what she will. He simply can no longer believe it because of the soul searching journey that he has made.

How's that for armchair psychology?

;)

[_The Nehor]

As for Joseph, I think he would be proud of what his organization has become, be impressed by the power it has over the members and the influence it has on the political scene, and publically would heep praise on the leadership. He would never mourn doctrines now gone, since he would know they were pulled from thin air anyway. And since he would know it was based on lies, deceit, lust, and power, he'd be laughing in his beer. He would have done the expediant thing, not the right thing.

I find it amazing how many people now know Joseph Smith so well they can predict his every response even after pulling him a hundred years from his own time.

[_The Nehor]

I expect he would weep for Zion and ask, "How long?"

You mean, how long can he keep up the charade? I'm sure that's what you meant. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Then I guess I have to correct you. No, not what I meant.

Roughly 150 years past his death and we're still not close to becoming the society God showed him.

[_Polygamy Porter]

I expect he would weep for Zion and ask, "How long?"

You mean, how long can he keep up the charade? I'm sure that's what you meant. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Then I guess I have to correct you. No, not what I meant.

Roughly 150 years past his death and we're still not close to becoming the society God showed him.

Goddamn Nehor, sometimes you can be so f***ing stupid.

If you want to see the society that old humpin Joe was attempting to form, just drive northwest to Eldorado Texas where the FLDS are living the LDS theology as Joseph taught it.

Joseph today would tell you that you are living the life of a wretched apostate.