116 pages

[_Blixa]

Why Me -

"reading" a rock that was tucked in a dark place like a hat was part of the common folk-religion of Joseph Smith' time period -

Mineral rods and balls, (as they were called by the imposter who made use of them,) were supposed to be infallible guides to these sources of wealth—"peep stones" or pebbles, taken promiscuously from the brook or field, were placed in a hat or other situation excluded from the light, when some wizard or witch (for these performances were not confined to either sex) applied their eyes, and nearly starting their balls from their sockets, declared they saw all the wonders of nature, including of course, ample stores of silver and gold.

It is more than probable [said the Reflector in the skeptical tradition to which it was dedicated] that some of these deluded people, by having their imaginations heated to the highest pitch of excitment, and by straining their eyes until they were suffused with tears, might have, through the medium of some trifling emmision of the ray of light, receive[d] imperfect images on the retina, when their fancies could create the rest. Be this however as it may, people busied themselves in consulting these blind oracles, while the ground nightly opened in various places by men who were too lazy or idle to labor for bread in the day time, displayed a zeal and perserverance in this business worthy of a better cause.

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/da ... apter2.htm

Martin Harris also had a strong testimony of shakerism and James Strang.

Quite right. Nobody thinks Joseph Smith "invented" srcying as a sell point of the fraud. And as beastie points out Martin Harris had "strong" testimony of Strang.

I thought I saw fairies when I was a little kid--I still have very vivid visual memories of them, too. That doesn't mean I did, though. Interesting, too, that they looked just like the illustrations in turn-of-the-century children's books that I loved!

[_Some Schmo]

I believe that we, the people, tend to forget that these individuals were once walking and breathing on this earth. Trust me, Martin was no dupe. He was highly respected in the community. I do believe that he would have no problem admitting that he was duped. And if he did think himself duped, he would have no problem walking away, instead of wasting his life away in a falsehood. Remember, that Martin was also privy to some visitations. We humans do not have that much stamina to live a fraud. Just look at yourself and your own process...has it been easy?

And you know any of this about Harris... how, exactly?

You may be right that humans don't have the stamina to maintain a fraud for long. That's why it's more likely that these guys were all delusional whack-jobs.

[_Dan Vogel]

Yet funnily enough, Martin Harris died proclaiming the truth of what he'd seen and how important the book was. There's the whole thing about receiving an hundredfold in heaven too. So he now has a hundred times that size farm and 100 shrewish wives (though I hear you can cash those in at a 10 to 1 ratio for righteous, powerful, goddess nubile swimsuit models).

All that is true enough. Martin never did deny his testimony. And that is certainly a bugbear for the critics. However, they do try to give quotations from Martin to show that he said many things at different times. But he never denied his testimony.

Why should our assessment of Harris depend on his ability to wake up from his delusions?

[_harmony]

I believe that we, the people, tend to forget that these individuals were once walking and breathing on this earth. Trust me, Martin was no dupe.

Anytime someone says "trust me", I go into bullshaloney-seeking mode. Why should anyone trust you, when you follow "trust me" with something as unlikely as "Martin was no dupe." He most certainly was, and Joseph played him like a violin.

He was highly respected in the community.

So? That doesn't mean he wasn't a dupe.

I do believe that he would have no problem admitting that he was duped.

Perhaps not, if he thought admitting such a thing would cause that "respect" you mentioned above to evaporate.

And if he did think himself duped, he would have no problem walking away, instead of wasting his life away in a falsehood.

That explains why people stick around through all kinds of nonsense (Scientology anyone? JW? anyone wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn? I have one for sale). People are gullible fools quite often. I agree he wasted his life though; he should have listened to his wife.

Remember, that Martin was also privy to some visitations.

Consider the source.

We humans do not have that much stamina to live a fraud.

I can't believe you just said this. We have a HUGE capacity to stick with a fraud. History is littered with the stories of lives destroyed by conmen. Jim Jones? Adolf Hitler? David Koresh?

[_Runtu]

I have never understood why people give so much weight to the witnesses. Dr. Peterson has said often that we critics must deal with the testimony of the witnesses, but for the life of me I can't figure out why that would be. The Book of Mormon speaks for itself as a modern work, not an ancient record, no matter how many witnesses claim to have seen an angel.

[_Some Schmo]

I have never understood why people give so much weight to the witnesses. Dr. Peterson has said often that we critics must deal with the testimony of the witnesses, but for the life of me I can't figure out why that would be. The Book of Mormon speaks for itself as a modern work, not an ancient record, no matter how many witnesses claim to have seen an angel.

The scene in the recent episode of Big Love where Alby's looking into the hat for revelation, and then asking for a witness was so awesome. It was a superb demonstration of why someone might want to be a witness even though there was nothing to witness.

Can you imagine being in on the ground floor of a 200 year old con? Pretty impressive.

[_why me]

Why Me -

"reading" a rock that was tucked in a dark place like a hat was part of the common folk-religion of Joseph Smith' time period -

Mineral rods and balls, (as they were called by the imposter who made use of them,) were supposed to be infallible guides to these sources of wealth—"peep stones" or pebbles, taken promiscuously from the brook or field, were placed in a hat or other situation excluded from the light, when some wizard or witch (for these performances were not confined to either sex) applied their eyes, and nearly starting their balls from their sockets, declared they saw all the wonders of nature, including of course, ample stores of silver and gold.

It is more than probable [said the Reflector in the skeptical tradition to which it was dedicated] that some of these deluded people, by having their imaginations heated to the highest pitch of excitment, and by straining their eyes until they were suffused with tears, might have, through the medium of some trifling emmision of the ray of light, receive[d] imperfect images on the retina, when their fancies could create the rest. Be this however as it may, people busied themselves in consulting these blind oracles, while the ground nightly opened in various places by men who were too lazy or idle to labor for bread in the day time, displayed a zeal and perserverance in this business worthy of a better cause.

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/da ... apter2.htm

Martin Harris also had a strong testimony of shakerism and James Strang.

Martin Harris being a human being lived life the way it was lived in his day. However, Martin remained faithful to his testimony and conviction about the Book of Mormon. The people on this board who were once members and who are now critics prove my point. No one who believes that the LDS church is a fraud has stayed the course. Why would Martin be an exception to all of you? We humans are very predictable. Martin believed. Hence, Martin stayed the course.

As for hat trick, well...the lord uses the knowledge for that time period. Hence, the hat. Next point?

[_why me]

I have never understood why people give so much weight to the witnesses. Dr. Peterson has said often that we critics must deal with the testimony of the witnesses, but for the life of me I can't figure out why that would be. The Book of Mormon speaks for itself as a modern work, not an ancient record, no matter how many witnesses claim to have seen an angel.

But certainly if the witnesses did a belly flop and a flip flop to their testimony, you would certainly give them some weight right?

[_Runtu]

I have never understood why people give so much weight to the witnesses. Dr. Peterson has said often that we critics must deal with the testimony of the witnesses, but for the life of me I can't figure out why that would be. The Book of Mormon speaks for itself as a modern work, not an ancient record, no matter how many witnesses claim to have seen an angel.

But certainly if the witnesses did a belly flop and a flip flop to their testimony, you would certainly give them some weight right?

I suppose it depends on the veracity of the claim. For example, I have a son with Asperger's, and one thing that he has a very hard time with is admitting the truth. Many times I have witnessed him doing something, and when I call him on it, he denies it. So, is he a reliable witness? Nope. If he retracts his statement, I'll give it weight only if it conforms to the facts of the matter.

So, in the case of the Book of Mormon witnesses, the book itself is its own evidence. It simply isn't a translation of an ancient record. If someone found a retraction from Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris, for example, it wouldn't materially affect my opinion of the book. To me, the witnesses simply aren't relevant "evidence."

[_Calculus Crusader]

Brigham Young's brother Phineas once reported that Martin Harris' testimony of Shakerism was greater than his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Also, Harris joined something like 13 different sects over the course of his life, and you (Mormons) would like us to take his word for it that the plates existed? Please. Harris was a rube whose mind (and money) were up for grabs to whichever religious fraud was currently fashionable.