Ray A wrote: Tal...You sound like Shakespeare on steroids.
Lovely compliment!!
How Do We Know Things?
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_Blixa
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Re: How Do We Know Things?
Lovely compliment!!
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
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_Blixa
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Gadianton wrote:Tal,
My opinion is that there is some sleight of hand in Mormonism's supposed testimony. I don't think many people in the church have very serious spiritual experiences. I think given the pressure the church puts members under to have a testimony, and since that is so linked to "burning in the bosom" that people tend to read things into their lives that never really were there in the first place, not even as delusions.
There's another aspect to this too, and that's the tendency for cliques to have their own little private language that all members understand yet which doesn't really mean anything. Part of that is being brainwashed by sentences at an early age by reciting and being subjected to sentences used to describe gospel things or used in prayer which the speaker just seems naturally disposed to utter but without much of an ability to explicate. A couple guys at work today were having a conversation about football and talking trash. They interacted as if they understood clearly what each other was saying, but they weren't actually saying anything at all, and if pressed, wouldn't be able to clearly explain what they were saying.
Rather than thinking everyone around the world gets positive feelings out of their religion, I would say they get familiar feelings. The way I've said it before. Clearly growing up in a small town with a little ritual of going to grandma's house every week for milk and cookies, playing some games and singing a few of the same songs doesn't hold any significant truth content. But there will always be a yearning for those feelings of familiarity which no other grandma's house, no matter how superior the cookies, might compete with. I guess another way of saying the same thing is that most people think the best music ever written is the stuff they listened to when they were 16. There is nothing that can bring back the state of mind in me, and evoke the nastalgia like hearing Duran Duran, Tears for Fears, Depeche Mode, Eurasure, even if I never listen to any of it anymore. And I think that testimony, to the extent it exists at all, is linked closer to this kind of familiarity than it is to some kind of objective trickery.
I have to say Gad sums up my own impressions of Mormon spirituality and Mormon knowledge.
And these are truly "impressions," not ideas I've "tested out" via any systematic historical research, though I dare say at this point I've read more Mormon history (including primary and secondary sources) than many and had a pretty good grounding in the "near past" of Utah culture because of my (inactive Mormon) parents insistence on visiting the elderly. So I don't think I'm talking completely out of/into my hat, either.
Like Gad, I think there is a kind of "homely pleasure" side to it----something that I see as dominant in an earlier era in the Utah church and to which I would assign the dates of circa 1930-1960. After which it seems the "clique language" aspect comes more to the fore (1970's to present), the transition period loosely corresponding to the introduction of "correlation." What existed prior to "homely pleasures?" Something like a period of reworked Joseph Smith mysticism (itself going through several distinct and overlapping forms) fused with an autocratic utilitarianism.
If it looks like I'm setting up a "kinder, gentler" Mormonism in contrast to a more authoritarian contemporary church, well, guilty as charged. But I think there's something to the sea change wrought by correlation (and of course I'm assuming it was more transformation than reformation) that would make an interesting topic for a cultural historian to address. I'm pretty sure I'll never be writing that book, though I'd love to read it.
For the record, however, I would be remiss if I did not state a point of disagreement between Gad and I: I do not think the best music I've ever heard is the pap that circulated on the airwaves in 1972, though I do think the neologism "nastalgia" is a good term for it.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
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_barrelomonkeys
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_Gazelam
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Gad,
Tal,
In answer to both of these, let me say this. There is not a ex member on this board that has not stated that they have felt the Holy Ghost. Everyone here says they have felt the Holy Ghost, but they go on to say that it was just some strange feeling, it didn't rally mean anything, it was just some form of delusion/ self hypnosis/ cog dis. whatever. The Holy Ghosts entire purpose is to bear testimony to the truthfulness of spiritual things. The more we seek after the writings of teachers of truth, be they the scriptures or the writings of modern prophets, th emore we become accustomed to the promptings and guidance the spirit guides and directs us with. We feel him more strongly when he is there, and we feel his departure more accutely when he is forced to flee from us.
That is why I say that its not possible to learn spiritual truths seperate from the help of the Holy Ghost. I am aware that it takes no time at all to read through the old six missionary discussions, but just reading them does not instruct you in the principles, they must be lived. At the end of the first discussion is the familiar "Moronis Promise". The scriupture must be read, and a prayer offered in a reverent spirit with an honest intent to know truth.
Even the Savior did not attempt to define the process of spiritual growth. He stated, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) Like the wind, we can feel the Spirit pushing at our backs, and like the wind can sting our face, the spirit can sting our hearts when he flees from us because of our actions. And like th ewind, we don't fuly know where it comes form or where it wil lead us. "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit,Nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so tohu knowest not the works of God who maketh all." ( Ecclesiastes 11:5) As has been frquently observed, the abilty to define and explain is not neccesary in order to experience and know.
Paul used the expression "hidden wisdom" to describe the gospel of Jesus Christ. ( !Corinthians 2:7) Gospel principles, he explained, could not be known and understood in the same manner that we gain mastery of earthly or mundane things. The knowledge of spiritual things can only be taught and learned by the Spirit. "But the natural man receiveth no tthe things of the Spirit of God," he said, "for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.{" (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Considerable effort is necessary to become fluent in th elanguage of the Spirit. Some who are unwilling to expend the effort to learn that language justify their spiritual lethargy by denying the reality of such things. To all such, gospel treasures or wisdom remain hidden. Their ignorance of these truths no more negates their reality than that of a blind man denying the existence of light threatens the reality of light, or a deaf man denying the existence of sound threatens the reality of sound. Thus Paul declared:
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the Spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (! Corinthians 2:9-13)
If we are to find the things of the Spirit, we must search in the realm of the Spirit. true religion can come from no other source. All true religion centers in feelings, and since feelings are not subject to a system of weights and measures, it is difficult to describe them to the unspiritual. Again our inability to describe those feelings doesent negate their reality.
In a previous post in the thread entitled "A Conversation with Tal" I listed the feeling commonly associated with the Spirit of revelation. A study of those feelings would do well in teaching an individual to recognize and folow the promptings of the Holy Ghost.[/quote]
gaz, anyone could read the missionary discussions, the old ones I guess, in about a half hour, and completely familiarize themselves with the "truths" of salvation. if there's something more to it than that, can you give us an example?
Tal,
Gazelam
You wrote:A knowledge of eternal truths is obtained in a diferent manner.
Will you explain how you came to know that?
In answer to both of these, let me say this. There is not a ex member on this board that has not stated that they have felt the Holy Ghost. Everyone here says they have felt the Holy Ghost, but they go on to say that it was just some strange feeling, it didn't rally mean anything, it was just some form of delusion/ self hypnosis/ cog dis. whatever. The Holy Ghosts entire purpose is to bear testimony to the truthfulness of spiritual things. The more we seek after the writings of teachers of truth, be they the scriptures or the writings of modern prophets, th emore we become accustomed to the promptings and guidance the spirit guides and directs us with. We feel him more strongly when he is there, and we feel his departure more accutely when he is forced to flee from us.
That is why I say that its not possible to learn spiritual truths seperate from the help of the Holy Ghost. I am aware that it takes no time at all to read through the old six missionary discussions, but just reading them does not instruct you in the principles, they must be lived. At the end of the first discussion is the familiar "Moronis Promise". The scriupture must be read, and a prayer offered in a reverent spirit with an honest intent to know truth.
Even the Savior did not attempt to define the process of spiritual growth. He stated, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) Like the wind, we can feel the Spirit pushing at our backs, and like the wind can sting our face, the spirit can sting our hearts when he flees from us because of our actions. And like th ewind, we don't fuly know where it comes form or where it wil lead us. "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit,Nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so tohu knowest not the works of God who maketh all." ( Ecclesiastes 11:5) As has been frquently observed, the abilty to define and explain is not neccesary in order to experience and know.
Paul used the expression "hidden wisdom" to describe the gospel of Jesus Christ. ( !Corinthians 2:7) Gospel principles, he explained, could not be known and understood in the same manner that we gain mastery of earthly or mundane things. The knowledge of spiritual things can only be taught and learned by the Spirit. "But the natural man receiveth no tthe things of the Spirit of God," he said, "for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.{" (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Considerable effort is necessary to become fluent in th elanguage of the Spirit. Some who are unwilling to expend the effort to learn that language justify their spiritual lethargy by denying the reality of such things. To all such, gospel treasures or wisdom remain hidden. Their ignorance of these truths no more negates their reality than that of a blind man denying the existence of light threatens the reality of light, or a deaf man denying the existence of sound threatens the reality of sound. Thus Paul declared:
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the Spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
"Which things also we speak, not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (! Corinthians 2:9-13)
If we are to find the things of the Spirit, we must search in the realm of the Spirit. true religion can come from no other source. All true religion centers in feelings, and since feelings are not subject to a system of weights and measures, it is difficult to describe them to the unspiritual. Again our inability to describe those feelings doesent negate their reality.
In a previous post in the thread entitled "A Conversation with Tal" I listed the feeling commonly associated with the Spirit of revelation. A study of those feelings would do well in teaching an individual to recognize and folow the promptings of the Holy Ghost.[/quote]
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_Gazelam
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From previous thread
Discerning the Spirit
There is an old jewish saying that there is no stirring above until there is a stirring below. God remains unknown until we put forth the effort to receive a revelation. In the language of the Mormon church we say that you receive no witness until after a trial of your faith. If we wish to know if God is there, or if a point of doctrine is true, we must pray.
D&C 32:8-9
8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.
You can only know God through prayer and revelation. God asks that we pray so that we can begin to grow our spiritual muscles and understand that we must desire righteousness and stretch ourselves through faith.
The question now is, how do we distinguish between revelation and emotion, or personal desires.
One way to discern is to apply to a revelation the "what is its purpose test", or "purity of purpose test". The question often arises among missionaries that while in the field they met many others who had some sort of spiritual experience, and that they think that becasue they were sincere, that matbe they did have a spiritual experience and maybe they're alright.
Lets discern the spirit of this. Whats the purpose of the revelation? If someone is going to say that they received a revelation that tells them that they do not need to be baptised for the remission of their sins, that they are not in need of the companionship of the gift of the Holy Ghost, that they have no need to hear a prophets voice, that surely they don't need to be sealed to their spouse for time and all eternity or any other of the blessing that come from fellowship in the kingdom of God, be suspicious. The Holy Ghost does not give that kind of a revelation.
The Holy Ghost does not go around contradicting himself. If someone says to me that they received a revelation that Jesus was not the Christ, I would be suspicious. I don't find that all that difficult to discern.
What is its purpose. If the revelation genuinely comes from the Lord, its purpose is not going to be to tell someone to close their minds, but to instead open themselves up and receive further light and knowledge. Revelations are not easy things either. They tend to be demanding, they ask a person to stretch and grow.
A good way to study revelations is to look at past revelations and study them to identify characteristics. Two words that are in nearly every scriptural example where revelation is given are Joy and Peace.
Characteristic Joy. The gospel is called the "glad tidings of joy" (D&C 128:19). It caries the spirit that enlightens the heart and brings joy to the soul.
Isa. 35: 10
10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
"I was filled with unspeakable Joy" Joseph Smith said as he described the feeling he experienced in the First Vision "My soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great joy and the Lord was with me."
The three words most common to the spiritual descriptions of those embracing the truths of salvation are: Joy, gladness and rejoicing. As Paul said the gospel is the "Oil of gladness" (Heb 1:9)
Characteristic Peace, a companion of Joy. A feeling frequently found when describing the Spirit of the gospel or ther presence of the Holy Ghost.
Having promised his diciples the companionship of the Holy Ghost Christ said "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27)
By contrast, the spirit of the devil; what does it produce? Confusion, disorder, misery. The spirit of God produces calmness, order, happiness.
The First Vision is a great example. It brought a state of calmness and peace indescribable.
George A. Smith said:
Quote:
When a mans mind is illuminated by a dream it leaves a vivid and a pleasant impression. When it may be guided by the Spirit of God it leaves the mind happy and comforted and the understanding clear.
Oliver Cowdery in describing the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood at the hands of John the Baptist said:
Quote:
Earth has not the power to give the joy or bestow the peace or comprehend the wisdom which was contained in each sentance as they were delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Similarly in the Old Testament Gideon named the place where he stood face to face with the angel of the Lord Jehovah-shalom meaning "The peace of the Lord". (Judg. 6: 24)
Mosiah 4: 3, 20
3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.
D&C 6: 23
23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?
After his death, Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and instrructed him to ""Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."
Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.
Characteristic Enlightenment
To receive revelation is to receive light. As all revelation edifies, so all revelation enlightens.
D&C 50:23
And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
that's a good spiritual test. Does it edify?
The word edify comes from the word edifice. An edifice is viwed properly to be a chapel, or a temple. When a chapel or temple was ina state of reconstruction or improvement we called it edifying it. That which edifies improves, build up.
To edify causes you to be built up, added to, improved.
Edify has a companion and that is "To enlighten". The revelations tell us that truth shines, it enlightens both the heart and mind. It quickens the understanding. Or as Joseph Smith said "The sudden stroke of ideas." That quickening of understanding, or feeling of pure intelligence flowing through you, that's not just a matter of a ligth coming on where it used to be dark. Its more a case of a light that was already burning burning more brightly, so that we can see further.
Characteristic Pure, virtuous
D&C 67: 9
9 For ye know that there is no unrighteousness in them, and that which is righteous cometh down from above, from the Father of lights
James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Revelation shows the attributes of God. A manifestation of the nature and character of God. Will a revelation lack wisdom? God is not unwise. Will it lack virtue, purity, or any other Godly attribute? The revelations of heaven will likewise not lack these attributes. The Holy Ghost effects the heart and soul of a man not only createing an abhorence for sin but also gives birth to a disposition to do good continually.
Characteristic Harmony
Truth does not contradict itself. God is not unreliable. All of heavens truths sustain one another. The gospel is everlastingly the same. "What I say unto one I say unto all" (D&C 93:49)
No one receives a revelation telling them to deny Christ, reject his prophets, or their council, to stray from the ordinances, break the covenants...never.
No one receives a revelation that excuses them from the obligation to be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. This is the doctrine of kindred spirits or the verity that all things seek their own.
D&C 88: 40
40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things
Characteristic Warmth
Anyone who has born testimony when they had not planned to do so has somethignin common with the prophet Jeremiah who stated "...But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not be stayed." (jer. 20:9)
Here is a good example of not being able to recognize the Spirit of the Lord, from the New testament Luke 24. Two men were walking the Emmaus road. the resurrected Savior appeared to them but they did not recognize him. The scriptures state that their "eyes were holden". He joins in their conversation and talks with them and instructs them for some two hours! These men had the resurrected Jesus Christ as their teacher!
They were not intimidated or uncomfortable. They spoke freely and conversed with him. Ask whatever questions they liked and he answered. "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." They get to their destination and sit down to eat, and he breaks bread with them and blesses it and then dissappears.
Only then do they understand the Lord had been with them. They state "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way" Only retrospectivly were they able to look back and discover what they had experienced and realize they had walked with God.
How often have we walked with God, and felt that warmth, but not had the spiritual maturity to recognize it.
Characteristic Feelings
All true religion brings with it a sense of confidince and assurance, all true religion involves feelings.
Whats a good way to know this? You can't pick up Anti-Mormon literature without reading that we should not trust our feelings. that's a sure sign to know that you should trust them.
Bruce R McConkie stated "All true religion is a feeling."
The first great revelation that Joseph Smith had came while reading the epistle of James. He said "Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again".
That is a perfect definition of revelation, And you know it, you just needed it to pointed out to you.
The Spirit of revelation finds eloquence in the feelings of the heart. Christ taught that only those who understood with their hearts could be converted. Teaching Joseph Smith how to understand revelation Christ said "I will tell you in your mind and in your heart" (D&C 8:2) that's a good concept, the Lord doesent give a mindless revelation. "You shall feel that it is right" (D&C 9:8-9)
Laman and Lemuel, consumed by a spirit of rebellion, could not understand spiritual things. Nephi said they were "Past feeling"(1 Nephi 17:45) They could not feel his words.
Paul taught this as "blindness of the heart" and "past feeling" (Eph 4:18-19) They had darkened their understanding by doing wicked deeds.
Joseph Smith taught if a doctrine is good "It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know that it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more."
He was used to feasting on that sort of thing. Alma described it as "Swelling motions which enlarge the soul and become delicious to the taste" (Alma 32: 28)
Characteristic Inspiration
The Spirit of the Lord is positive, not negative. Any doctrine properly taught and properly understood inspires, lifts. It gives confidence and hope. Paul used the expression "much assurance" (1 Thes. 1: 5) The Plan of Salvation frees the souls of men, it does not bring bondage.
Any doctrine that discourages or oppresses has either been improperly taught or misunderstood. It is not a characteristic of the doctrines of heaven.
Characteristic Self reliance
In the revelation given as the preface to the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord testifies that the contents of the Book are "true and faithful". All that is revealed from heaven, whether personal or institutional, is by its nature true and faithful.
Trustworthy, loyalty or fidelity are all roots of the word truth. In the scriptures when we talk about truth its not used in its high spiritual meaning, its something that is standing opposite of error.
The truths of heaven are wholy dependable. "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away"(D&C 1:38)
Here is a man that was accustomed to the spirit of revelation:
Psalms 19:7-11
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
Latter Day Saints have not just been promised that it is their right to receive revelation. If you pay attention to the scriptural injunction you will discover what is said is that you don't have the right to be without it. Not is it only your right to receive revelation, it is not your right not to receive revelation. Theres a signifigant difference there. It is our right, it is our obligation.
D&C 121:33
How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.
that's our right, that's our heritage, that's our responsibility.
There is an old jewish saying that there is no stirring above until there is a stirring below. God remains unknown until we put forth the effort to receive a revelation. In the language of the Mormon church we say that you receive no witness until after a trial of your faith. If we wish to know if God is there, or if a point of doctrine is true, we must pray.
D&C 32:8-9
8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.
You can only know God through prayer and revelation. God asks that we pray so that we can begin to grow our spiritual muscles and understand that we must desire righteousness and stretch ourselves through faith.
The question now is, how do we distinguish between revelation and emotion, or personal desires.
One way to discern is to apply to a revelation the "what is its purpose test", or "purity of purpose test". The question often arises among missionaries that while in the field they met many others who had some sort of spiritual experience, and that they think that becasue they were sincere, that matbe they did have a spiritual experience and maybe they're alright.
Lets discern the spirit of this. Whats the purpose of the revelation? If someone is going to say that they received a revelation that tells them that they do not need to be baptised for the remission of their sins, that they are not in need of the companionship of the gift of the Holy Ghost, that they have no need to hear a prophets voice, that surely they don't need to be sealed to their spouse for time and all eternity or any other of the blessing that come from fellowship in the kingdom of God, be suspicious. The Holy Ghost does not give that kind of a revelation.
The Holy Ghost does not go around contradicting himself. If someone says to me that they received a revelation that Jesus was not the Christ, I would be suspicious. I don't find that all that difficult to discern.
What is its purpose. If the revelation genuinely comes from the Lord, its purpose is not going to be to tell someone to close their minds, but to instead open themselves up and receive further light and knowledge. Revelations are not easy things either. They tend to be demanding, they ask a person to stretch and grow.
A good way to study revelations is to look at past revelations and study them to identify characteristics. Two words that are in nearly every scriptural example where revelation is given are Joy and Peace.
Characteristic Joy. The gospel is called the "glad tidings of joy" (D&C 128:19). It caries the spirit that enlightens the heart and brings joy to the soul.
Isa. 35: 10
10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
"I was filled with unspeakable Joy" Joseph Smith said as he described the feeling he experienced in the First Vision "My soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great joy and the Lord was with me."
The three words most common to the spiritual descriptions of those embracing the truths of salvation are: Joy, gladness and rejoicing. As Paul said the gospel is the "Oil of gladness" (Heb 1:9)
Characteristic Peace, a companion of Joy. A feeling frequently found when describing the Spirit of the gospel or ther presence of the Holy Ghost.
Having promised his diciples the companionship of the Holy Ghost Christ said "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27)
By contrast, the spirit of the devil; what does it produce? Confusion, disorder, misery. The spirit of God produces calmness, order, happiness.
The First Vision is a great example. It brought a state of calmness and peace indescribable.
George A. Smith said:
Quote:
When a mans mind is illuminated by a dream it leaves a vivid and a pleasant impression. When it may be guided by the Spirit of God it leaves the mind happy and comforted and the understanding clear.
Oliver Cowdery in describing the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood at the hands of John the Baptist said:
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Earth has not the power to give the joy or bestow the peace or comprehend the wisdom which was contained in each sentance as they were delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Similarly in the Old Testament Gideon named the place where he stood face to face with the angel of the Lord Jehovah-shalom meaning "The peace of the Lord". (Judg. 6: 24)
Mosiah 4: 3, 20
3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.
D&C 6: 23
23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?
After his death, Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and instrructed him to ""Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."
Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.
Characteristic Enlightenment
To receive revelation is to receive light. As all revelation edifies, so all revelation enlightens.
D&C 50:23
And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.
that's a good spiritual test. Does it edify?
The word edify comes from the word edifice. An edifice is viwed properly to be a chapel, or a temple. When a chapel or temple was ina state of reconstruction or improvement we called it edifying it. That which edifies improves, build up.
To edify causes you to be built up, added to, improved.
Edify has a companion and that is "To enlighten". The revelations tell us that truth shines, it enlightens both the heart and mind. It quickens the understanding. Or as Joseph Smith said "The sudden stroke of ideas." That quickening of understanding, or feeling of pure intelligence flowing through you, that's not just a matter of a ligth coming on where it used to be dark. Its more a case of a light that was already burning burning more brightly, so that we can see further.
Characteristic Pure, virtuous
D&C 67: 9
9 For ye know that there is no unrighteousness in them, and that which is righteous cometh down from above, from the Father of lights
James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Revelation shows the attributes of God. A manifestation of the nature and character of God. Will a revelation lack wisdom? God is not unwise. Will it lack virtue, purity, or any other Godly attribute? The revelations of heaven will likewise not lack these attributes. The Holy Ghost effects the heart and soul of a man not only createing an abhorence for sin but also gives birth to a disposition to do good continually.
Characteristic Harmony
Truth does not contradict itself. God is not unreliable. All of heavens truths sustain one another. The gospel is everlastingly the same. "What I say unto one I say unto all" (D&C 93:49)
No one receives a revelation telling them to deny Christ, reject his prophets, or their council, to stray from the ordinances, break the covenants...never.
No one receives a revelation that excuses them from the obligation to be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. This is the doctrine of kindred spirits or the verity that all things seek their own.
D&C 88: 40
40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things
Characteristic Warmth
Anyone who has born testimony when they had not planned to do so has somethignin common with the prophet Jeremiah who stated "...But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not be stayed." (jer. 20:9)
Here is a good example of not being able to recognize the Spirit of the Lord, from the New testament Luke 24. Two men were walking the Emmaus road. the resurrected Savior appeared to them but they did not recognize him. The scriptures state that their "eyes were holden". He joins in their conversation and talks with them and instructs them for some two hours! These men had the resurrected Jesus Christ as their teacher!
They were not intimidated or uncomfortable. They spoke freely and conversed with him. Ask whatever questions they liked and he answered. "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." They get to their destination and sit down to eat, and he breaks bread with them and blesses it and then dissappears.
Only then do they understand the Lord had been with them. They state "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way" Only retrospectivly were they able to look back and discover what they had experienced and realize they had walked with God.
How often have we walked with God, and felt that warmth, but not had the spiritual maturity to recognize it.
Characteristic Feelings
All true religion brings with it a sense of confidince and assurance, all true religion involves feelings.
Whats a good way to know this? You can't pick up Anti-Mormon literature without reading that we should not trust our feelings. that's a sure sign to know that you should trust them.
Bruce R McConkie stated "All true religion is a feeling."
The first great revelation that Joseph Smith had came while reading the epistle of James. He said "Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again".
That is a perfect definition of revelation, And you know it, you just needed it to pointed out to you.
The Spirit of revelation finds eloquence in the feelings of the heart. Christ taught that only those who understood with their hearts could be converted. Teaching Joseph Smith how to understand revelation Christ said "I will tell you in your mind and in your heart" (D&C 8:2) that's a good concept, the Lord doesent give a mindless revelation. "You shall feel that it is right" (D&C 9:8-9)
Laman and Lemuel, consumed by a spirit of rebellion, could not understand spiritual things. Nephi said they were "Past feeling"(1 Nephi 17:45) They could not feel his words.
Paul taught this as "blindness of the heart" and "past feeling" (Eph 4:18-19) They had darkened their understanding by doing wicked deeds.
Joseph Smith taught if a doctrine is good "It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know that it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more."
He was used to feasting on that sort of thing. Alma described it as "Swelling motions which enlarge the soul and become delicious to the taste" (Alma 32: 28)
Characteristic Inspiration
The Spirit of the Lord is positive, not negative. Any doctrine properly taught and properly understood inspires, lifts. It gives confidence and hope. Paul used the expression "much assurance" (1 Thes. 1: 5) The Plan of Salvation frees the souls of men, it does not bring bondage.
Any doctrine that discourages or oppresses has either been improperly taught or misunderstood. It is not a characteristic of the doctrines of heaven.
Characteristic Self reliance
In the revelation given as the preface to the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord testifies that the contents of the Book are "true and faithful". All that is revealed from heaven, whether personal or institutional, is by its nature true and faithful.
Trustworthy, loyalty or fidelity are all roots of the word truth. In the scriptures when we talk about truth its not used in its high spiritual meaning, its something that is standing opposite of error.
The truths of heaven are wholy dependable. "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away"(D&C 1:38)
Here is a man that was accustomed to the spirit of revelation:
Psalms 19:7-11
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
Latter Day Saints have not just been promised that it is their right to receive revelation. If you pay attention to the scriptural injunction you will discover what is said is that you don't have the right to be without it. Not is it only your right to receive revelation, it is not your right not to receive revelation. Theres a signifigant difference there. It is our right, it is our obligation.
D&C 121:33
How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.
that's our right, that's our heritage, that's our responsibility.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_Blixa
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Gazelam wrote:There is not a ex member on this board that has not stated that they have felt the Holy Ghost. Everyone here says they have felt the Holy Ghost, but they go on to say that it was just some strange feeling, it didn't rally mean anything, it was just some form of delusion/ self hypnosis/ cog dis. whatever.
Me. I never felt anything. I never had any Holy Ghost signal, burning in the bosom, never "felt the spirit." Not once ever. Nothing. No stupor of thought either. No "calm peaceful feeling."
I don't think I'm the only one either.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
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_Runtu
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Blixa wrote:Gazelam wrote:There is not a ex member on this board that has not stated that they have felt the Holy Ghost. Everyone here says they have felt the Holy Ghost, but they go on to say that it was just some strange feeling, it didn't rally mean anything, it was just some form of delusion/ self hypnosis/ cog dis. whatever.
Me. I never felt anything. I never had any Holy Ghost signal, burning in the bosom, never "felt the spirit." Not once ever. Nothing. No stupor of thought either. No "calm peaceful feeling."
I don't think I'm the only one either.
Oh, you're just hard-hearted. Admit it. ;-)
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_Runtu
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Blixa wrote:Gazelam wrote:There is not a ex member on this board that has not stated that they have felt the Holy Ghost. Everyone here says they have felt the Holy Ghost, but they go on to say that it was just some strange feeling, it didn't rally mean anything, it was just some form of delusion/ self hypnosis/ cog dis. whatever.
Me. I never felt anything. I never had any Holy Ghost signal, burning in the bosom, never "felt the spirit." Not once ever. Nothing. No stupor of thought either. No "calm peaceful feeling."
I don't think I'm the only one either.
I didn't feel that when I read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it; not once. I did, however, have an intensely powerful experience in the Salt Lake Temple. It was the second time I had been through the temple, and I was seriously troubled by the penalties and the other stuff, so much that I wanted to get up and walk out. I prayed as hard as I have ever prayed that I would feel better about the temple ceremony, and I had a very strong feeling that filled my body. So, I know what that experience is like. I also know that your feelings can "testify" of something that is manifestly false. So, I don't discount what I felt that day, but I don't interpret it the way I used to.
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_Blixa
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Runtu wrote:Blixa wrote:Gazelam wrote:There is not a ex member on this board that has not stated that they have felt the Holy Ghost. Everyone here says they have felt the Holy Ghost, but they go on to say that it was just some strange feeling, it didn't rally mean anything, it was just some form of delusion/ self hypnosis/ cog dis. whatever.
Me. I never felt anything. I never had any Holy Ghost signal, burning in the bosom, never "felt the spirit." Not once ever. Nothing. No stupor of thought either. No "calm peaceful feeling."
I don't think I'm the only one either.
Oh, you're just hard-hearted. Admit it. ;-)
Well I did have an intensely spiritual experience recently within stone's throw of a Mormon temple. It was watching Mark Morris's suite of "Mozart Dances" at Lincoln Center. Nothing fills me with such total joy and hope and good will toward humanity like Mark's work. This performance, for Lincoln Center's Mostly Mozart series doesn't come even close to the out of body joy I get from watching a live performance of l'Allegro. Who'da thunk I'd be turned on by Milton one day? Mark Morris is nearly always a semi-religious experience for me---something spiritual in the sense of connection to something greater and bigger and transcendent: for me though, that's always humanity/history/the future. Not god.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
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_Gadianton
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In answer to both of these, let me say this. There is not a ex member on this board that has not stated that they have felt the Holy Ghost. Everyone here says they have felt the Holy Ghost, but they go on to say that it was just some strange feeling,
no no no..that's not true. I've never, ever said I felt a "strange feeling", in fact, my position is the opposite. I don't believe anything i ever felt in the church was special, and I never even believed anythign i felt was special at the time and freely confessed these things to my leaders. Further, in my private discussion with other missionaries, I frequently got a lot of the same from them, no exceptional feelings, and an anxiety over not having a proper testimony. Ultimately, there seemed to be a need for these guys and gals to look back and tell fish stories to themselves until a big enough experience jumped out of the water.
My position is, I don't think most Mormons are insane or delusional, I think 90% at least have no ultra "strange feelings", burnings and so on. I think they feel comfortable with what they grew up with, and I think they string together little things they've collected over the years and ape it into something that allows them to transform comfort and familiarity into ultimate truth.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.