How do you know it's the Holy Ghost?

[_Scottie]

4. You need to humble yourself.

If I had a quarter for every time I heard that one...

[_William Schryver]

Per Kimberly Ann’s request, and because my heart is still twitterpated at the recollection of her in slinky black dress, I am posting my reply from the other thread, along with the reply I made to Ryan’s subsequent questions:

I confess that I used to be kind of a Star Trek devotee. Not when they were shown originally, but much later, when they were in syndicated reruns. Some of them were downright silly. But others actually had some depth and considerable import to them. At least I felt like I could glean something of real significance from them.

There is one episode that I found fascinating. I think it was called Spock’s Brain. The premise was kind of silly: some aliens (all female) appear and steal Spock’s brain, take it to their underground living quarters, and proceed to wire it up as their central control unit. Of course, Kirk and McCoy must somehow reunite Spock’s brain with his still-functioning body. So they locate the brain and demand that the aliens put it back in. The women appear, but they’re all manifestly incapable of doing anything so complex. The woman who is the leader, when pressed for answers, makes reference to “The Teacher.” Well, it turns out that “The Teacher” is some kind of a device that can be placed on one’s head, and after it performs its function, it can then be removed and the recipient of its effect is immediately endowed with stupendous amounts of knowledge and understanding. It was by this means that the leader woman was able to remove Spock’s brain and install it as their control unit. However, the effect doesn’t last very long, and so after a while, the woman resumed her normal level of knowledge, understanding, and capacities.

Well, she refuses to use “The Teacher” in order to restore Spock’s brain, and therefore Kirk orders McCoy to attempt it. McCoy ultimately consents, places the unit on his head, and after a few moments where it looks like the device will fry his brain, it is removed, and his eyes light up. He immediately commences the operation on Spock, exclaiming, “Why, it’s so simple, a child could do it.”

He works feverishly for several minutes, brimming with confidence and complete self-assurance. However, after a while, you can see uncertainty begin to sweep over his countenance, and before long he is perspiring heavily and consumed with self-doubt.

Of course, the effect of “The Teacher” has worn off. And he just can’t put it back on his head. He is left to his own devices to bridge the gap between how far he has gotten and how far he still has to go.

Well, of course, the script dictates that Spock’s brain be restored, and McCoy manages to restore Spock’s speech center, and with Spock’s assistance, the operation is completed successfully.

Now, what am I driving at here?

Well, many people have suggested that the effect of the Holy Ghost is simply some warm, fuzzy, peaceful, or comforting feeling. Many people here who no longer believe in the “Restored Gospel” nonetheless report having felt just such feelings during their tenure as believing Latter-day Saints.

I suppose I have felt such feelings myself at times. But, to me, that is not what I associate with the Holy Ghost; not what I would characterize as the basis of my knowledge. Rather, the experiences I have had that I associate with the “Holy Ghost” are very similar in nature to what that episode of Star Trek is hinting at with its “Teacher” device. It is a clarity of thought, an infusion of pure intelligence, a confident “knowing” of something. However, just like the effect of “The Teacher” on Dr. McCoy, the effect of the Holy Ghost does not last indefinitely. What was it that Joseph Smith wrote?

D&C 130

23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

And Jesus said to Nicodemus:

John 3

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

And yet, Nicodemus was confused, and answered, “How can these things be?” To which, Jesus then replied:

John 3

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

In my life experience, there is nothing that has been as real, as authentic as those fleeting moments when that supremely unique influence has “descended” upon me. Would that I could bottle it and drink of it at will. But it cannot be done. Not here. Not now. I wish it could be. It would make things so much easier. Instead, I am forced to wade through the doubts, just like Dr. McCoy did, and somehow find a way to bridge the gap between my doubts and fears and the next strengthening – the next knowing experience that blows my way.

That bridge is built with faith. But it is not blind faith. It is faith based on the solid recollection of what was once seen clearly, but is now only seen through a glass darkly.

That is how I know things.



Then:

Who Knows:

How do you know that it was the holy ghost doing/causing this?

I never said that I know it is the Holy Ghost. What I described were:

… the experiences I have had that I associate with the “Holy Ghost” …

I was describing my experience; the type of thing that I have come to associate with the term “Holy Ghost.” The intelligence I have received during those kinds of experiences is what I bank on in my life.

Look, people can choose to rely on whatever means is at their disposal in their search for knowledge, truth, and meaning. I’m simply telling you that I have had experiences such as I describe above, and that I have concluded that those experiences are consequent to an external influence (which I call the Holy Ghost) interacting with me. I have learned to trust the things that I have learned during those experiences. I also read books, contemplate things, and engage in intellectual exchanges with others. All these things are tools I use to acquire knowledge, truth, and meaning in my life. But, in the final analysis, I have learned to trust what I call “the Holy Ghost” above all my other intelligence-acquisition tools.

What do you say to those who have had similar experiences, but that are not attributable to the holy ghost (or at least, not attributable to your - the LDS - version of the holy ghost)?

I’m not sure what you mean. I am willing that all people seek knowledge, truth, and meaning in their own way; according to the dictates of their own conscience, reasoning powers, and even prejudices. It doesn’t matter to me either way. I do not doubt that there are many means utilized by people around the globe (and throughout this galaxy and beyond) to acquire intelligence. I’m simply speaking of my experience, in response to the question posed at the beginning of this thread.

Wouldn't someone, who is not LDS, attribute those experiences to whatever it is that they've been taught causes those experiences?

No doubt they would.

And then how do you know that they're wrong and you're right?

I don’t. That is, I don’t know that they’re wrong. I don’t even think about it, really. As far as my conviction of being “right” is concerned, I’m not sure that would even be an accurate characterization of what I feel about my knowledge. I have simply learned, within the unique parameters and circumstances of my own existence, to give my trust to the kind of intelligence I receive via my personal conduit. It speaks to me. It has relevance for me. Of those things that I claim to know, it has been the primary mechanism for their transmission. Whether they have meaning or relevance to others is beyond my capacity to determine.

It just seems all rather subjective to me...

How could it be otherwise?



By the way, KA, even though I get e-mails back suggesting that mine sent to you were rejected for exceeding the size limitation, they are apparently getting through to you. I sent you some more songs. I also recorded a couple of my own compositions on my keyboard this afternoon, and I sent those to you just for the heck of it.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

There are a couple authoritative statements that say we CAN'T trust promptings from the Holy Ghost.

1) Joseph Smith, when he was unable to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada after receiving revelation to do so, said some revelations are from god, some are from man, and some are from the devil.

2) Boyd K Packer gave a talk where he discussed the Holy Ghost and how Satan can disguise his promptings to feel the same as promptings from the holy ghost. THerefore, we should be wary of promptings.

Does anyone have these two references handy? I'm too lazy to look them up.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Thanks, William, for reposting that. I was a fan of the original Star Trek reruns, too, and I still love William Shatner. I watch him on Boston Legal.

Also, I thoroughly enjoyed your original compositions! You are very talented. Thank you for sending them!

SatanWasSetUp, I've heard of both examples you offered, but like you, don't remember where they come from, and unfortunately, also like you, I'm too lazy to look them up!

KA

[_quaker]

I think of the feelings as fruits of the Spirit. I know the Spirit is there when I feel the fruits of the spirit.

I've slowly distanced myself from saying I feel the Holy Ghost. I now say that the spirit is present, or I note the spirit's influence because of the fruits that I am feeling. Does that make sense?

Of course recognizing the feelings as fruits of the spirit is a personal standard I've set in my life. I had to consciously make the decision to recognize the fruits of the spirit as genuinely from the spirit. I suppose I could have made the choice to believe that there is no afterlife, spirit, god, etc... But I think I chose to recognize the 'spirit' as the spirit because it makes me better and it makes my life better. It was kind of like coming to a fork in the road. One road was the view of life as meaningless, and would have probably would have caused a life of apathy and self gratifying activity that, let's say, would not be socially acceptable. The other road gives me reason to avoid bad self-gratifying activities, gives me reason to be positive and productive when I otherwise would probably just give up and whine, and makes me and my family happy.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Let me ask you this. Have you been happier since you have left Mormonism?

Has your overall relationship with your family been healthier and have you developed a better sense of self?

You know, the answers to those questions aren't clear-cut for me. I am able to be more myself since leaving Mormonism; however, leaving took a toll on my marriage that probably hasn't been completely resolved. I'm a little different than I was as a Mormon woman. My husband has been thrown for a loop now that he's getting to know the "me" I kept subdued as a Molly Mormon wife. But, on the whole, I'm happier now than I was as a member of the Mormon church. I definitely have a better sense of self.

Most of all, I'm glad my daughters aren't Mormons. For me, no matter how difficult the process of leaving the religion into which I was born and to which I'd dedicated my life becomes, my daughters growing up without Mormonism holding them back makes it all worth it.

Here's a question for you, Liz: How do you feel about the Holy Ghost giving contradictory information to two parities? Who has the real Holy Ghost and who has the false spirit when people get what they believe to be inspiration and that inspiration is in opposition such that both revelations or promptings cannot be correct?

KA

[_The Nehor]

4. You need to humble yourself.

If I had a quarter for every time I heard that one...

The advice is generally good....the problem I've found is that most people who give that advice are doing it to shut you up, not help you.

[_The Nehor]

KA, I have a theory about this. I shared it on MAD once, and I'll paraphrase it here.

Most LDS, when pressed on how they know it's the spirit and not just a good feeling, will usually say something to the effect that the spirit is SO much more powerful than a "good feeling". That, if you had felt it, you would most assuredly know that it was, indeed, the spirit. Absolutely no way to deny it.

Now, lets contrast that with someone that has clinical depression. Or clinical rage. We all feel depression and anger to some level, but those that are diagnosed with true clinical cases of depression and rage would say the same thing as a TBM. That the depression/anger that they feel is SO much stronger than what we feel.

If there is a gene that predisposes people to feel depression and anger at these intense levels, why is it so hard to believe that a similar gene doesn't exist for feeling good feelings/the spirit? This would also explain why the majority of us just feel good feelings without this overwhelming sensation that is so much more powerful.

These feelings may lie dormant for a long time in some people, until some event unleashes these emotions. Even after they are unleashed, there are trigger events that may cause them to re-appear, and often they grow stronger each time. The same goes for the spirit. Perhaps this predetermined genetic behaviour has been lying dormant for a long time, and when the missionaries come a knockin, it unleashes the feelings of "the spirit". Then, by reading scriptures, praying, etc., you know...trigger actions, the feelings will come back. Even stronger.

The same could be said for the death of a loved one. This event could unleash a genetic predisposition to depression, and send the person into a downward spiral.

So, for those that claim to KNOW it's the spirit, I call BS. I think they very strongly BELIEVE it's the spirit, but they can't know.

Interesting theory. It doesn't explain the visual and auditory hallucinations that must be having if it's genetic though.

[_The Nehor]

There are a couple authoritative statements that say we CAN'T trust promptings from the Holy Ghost.

1) Joseph Smith, when he was unable to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada after receiving revelation to do so, said some revelations are from god, some are from man, and some are from the devil.

2) Boyd K Packer gave a talk where he discussed the Holy Ghost and how Satan can disguise his promptings to feel the same as promptings from the holy ghost. THerefore, we should be wary of promptings.

Does anyone have these two references handy? I'm too lazy to look them up.

1) This happens all the time. However Joseph was not experienced in the Gospel when this deception came. In many ways I may have had more experience with the Spirit than Joseph had had at that point. Joseph got a crash course at first. It started with visitations and then to use his spiritual gifts he needed tools to aid him. Later on he used those tools less and less.

2) I heard that talk. If I remember correctly Pres. Packer taught that the way to discern between the two is peace. Satan can imitate the form and function of promptings but he can't imitate peace. I've been deceived by that trick. It's a feeling like a prompting but it's weird, like you're euphoric without the euphoria or calm while stressed out.

[_Scottie]

KA, I have a theory about this. I shared it on MAD once, and I'll paraphrase it here.

Most LDS, when pressed on how they know it's the spirit and not just a good feeling, will usually say something to the effect that the spirit is SO much more powerful than a "good feeling". That, if you had felt it, you would most assuredly know that it was, indeed, the spirit. Absolutely no way to deny it.

Now, lets contrast that with someone that has clinical depression. Or clinical rage. We all feel depression and anger to some level, but those that are diagnosed with true clinical cases of depression and rage would say the same thing as a TBM. That the depression/anger that they feel is SO much stronger than what we feel.

If there is a gene that predisposes people to feel depression and anger at these intense levels, why is it so hard to believe that a similar gene doesn't exist for feeling good feelings/the spirit? This would also explain why the majority of us just feel good feelings without this overwhelming sensation that is so much more powerful.

These feelings may lie dormant for a long time in some people, until some event unleashes these emotions. Even after they are unleashed, there are trigger events that may cause them to re-appear, and often they grow stronger each time. The same goes for the spirit. Perhaps this predetermined genetic behaviour has been lying dormant for a long time, and when the missionaries come a knockin, it unleashes the feelings of "the spirit". Then, by reading scriptures, praying, etc., you know...trigger actions, the feelings will come back. Even stronger.

The same could be said for the death of a loved one. This event could unleash a genetic predisposition to depression, and send the person into a downward spiral.

So, for those that claim to KNOW it's the spirit, I call BS. I think they very strongly BELIEVE it's the spirit, but they can't know.

Interesting theory. It doesn't explain the visual and auditory hallucinations that must be having if it's genetic though.

I've yet to hear one legitimate story of someone having a vision. It's always been a friend of a friend, or they heard of someone that had a vision.

My good friend swore up and down that he saw a vision of his dead uncle on his mission. Come to find out he suffered from severe sleep apnea and it WAS just a hallucination. It wasn't until he left the church that he could finally admit this to himself.

Now, this being said, I have had instances where "something" was put into my thoughts that changed my course of action and saved my life. I honestly don't think this was a random synapse firing off. I believe it was "something" helping me.