Why is it so hard to maintain a testimony?

[_William Schryver]

SWSU:

Once you have knowledge of something, why do you need to constantly remind yourself of it by bearing testimony of it, at the risk of losing that knowledge?

I think you’re misconceiving the entire point. The gospel isn’t about “knowing” something, it’s about “becoming” something. The only thing one claims to know is the correct path to follow to become that thing.

The knowledge -- the “revelation” -- is like the sap and nutrients in a tree proceeding from the roots to the trunk to the limbs and out to the branches – all to the end that the branches will bear fruit. One stays attached to the limbs in order to bear fruit, or one withers and dies, and is then good for nothing but to be pruned off and burned.

... the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

[_Sethbag]

Way to go, rcrocket and Will! The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. Or rather, it's reasonable for someone to have to continually remind themselves that the Church is True, because the people in the Bible said they had to do the same thing. Good one. This just extends the question back a step. In addition to having to remind oneself that the LDS church is true, continually, in order to maintain the faith, why is it necessary to do the same with the believe in God and Jesus? And the answer isn't very satisfying.

We must meet together often and remind each other that we believe a certain set of beliefs, because otherwise there is this bogeyman out there called the Devil who will convince us to stop believing these things. Do you guys realize how stupid this is?

There is no such being as The Devil. There's no Satan. There's no Lucifer. There are no fiery darts. This mythical creature is not convincing people to stop believing things that are actually true, because they failed to repeat the mantra enough times.

Schmo is right on. One of the things about indoctrinating someone with false teachings is that constant repetition will often eventually bring belief, but if those beliefs are unsupported by any kind of evidence, it's not hard to understand why that belief would require constant "maintenance" to hold the same strength over time. There's a very good reason why I don't require constant reminder that I believe in Relativity, but we do require constant reminder that we believe (or used to, anyhow) in the LDS church. I think it's a very instructive comparison.

[_Trevor]

I think it is a mistake to relate fluid feelings with judgments about one's commitment to a religion. The idea that 'feeling' a certain way, 24/7, is an unfailingly reliable guide to the worth of one's path is silly. Feelings are too tricky. Best to wed a lot of reason and self-reflection to the issue. Is the fact that one has felt depressed mean that one does not have a testimony? Is a testimony necessarily only grounded in a 'burning of the bosom'? These, I think, are important questions that do not have one-size-fits-all, simple answers.

[_William Schryver]

Way to go, rcrocket and Will! The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. Or rather, it's reasonable for someone to have to continually remind themselves that the Church is True, because the people in the Bible said they had to do the same thing. Good one. This just extends the question back a step. In addition to having to remind oneself that the LDS church is true, continually, in order to maintain the faith, why is it necessary to do the same with the believe in God and Jesus? And the answer isn't very satisfying.

We must meet together often and remind each other that we believe a certain set of beliefs, because otherwise there is this bogeyman out there called the Devil who will convince us to stop believing these things. Do you guys realize how stupid this is?

There is no such being as The Devil. There's no Satan. There's no Lucifer. There are no fiery darts. This mythical creature is not convincing people to stop believing things that are actually true, because they failed to repeat the mantra enough times.

Schmo is right on. One of the things about indoctrinating someone with false teachings is that constant repetition will often eventually bring belief, but if those beliefs are unsupported by any kind of evidence, it's not hard to understand why that belief would require constant "maintenance" to hold the same strength over time. There's a very good reason why I don't require constant reminder that I believe in Relativity, but we do require constant reminder that we believe (or used to, anyhow) in the LDS church. I think it's a very instructive comparison.

As is to be expected, you paid little or no attention to anything I said. I said nothing about reminding oneself of anything. All I've been talking about is staying connected to the "true vine." I've denied that the gospel is about "knowing" and suggested instead that it is about "becoming."

Clearly, you do not desire to "become" what living the principles of the gospel would make of you. That is perfectly fine with me. I hope you're satisfied with your path in life. And I sincerely hope that it is bringing you happiness and fulfillment.

I can understand why you choose to not believe. I really can. If I had not experienced the things I have, I could not believe it myself. But I really am mystified at the anger that seethes just beneath the surface with you. You really are angry at what you feel "the church" has done to you. Presumably that it has caused you to waste a considerable portion of your life; that it continues to blind and enslave people you love; perhaps even that it serves as an impediment to the advance of our culture and civilization.

Oh, well, I guess you have a choice to make: either keep holding on to that anger, or release it in some fashion. Just don't go postal or anything. Please.

[_asbestosman]

My body's muscles require regular exercise or else they will atrophy (or at least turn to flab). Brains need regular exercise or they will also atrophy. Even developing good character traits often requires regular attention, otherwise we will slip back into old habbits or into general laziness. If I don't keep practicing a foreign language (or even my native tongue, English), I will start losing my ability to speak it. Why would spiritual strength be any different?

[_Scottie]

The church pits the natural man against the commandments of God. The goal is to become a higher form of being by mastering ones carnal tendencies. It takes constant diligence to do this, and if you stop for even a short while, you begin to resort back to the natural, carnal man. This is why keeping a testimony is so important, and why losing it is so detrimental.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Once you have knowledge of something, why do you need to constantly remind yourself of it by bearing testimony of it, at the risk of losing that knowledge?

You don't. All you're doing, or should be doing, is simply sharing that knowledge with others.

No, that's missionary work. I'm talking about getting and maintaining a personal testimony.

SWSU:

Once you have knowledge of something, why do you need to constantly remind yourself of it by bearing testimony of it, at the risk of losing that knowledge?

I think you’re misconceiving the entire point. The gospel isn’t about “knowing” something, it’s about “becoming” something. The only thing one claims to know is the correct path to follow to become that thing.

I've denied that the gospel is about "knowing" and suggested instead that it is about "becoming."

Yes, Mormons strive to live a certain lifestyle, but back on the topic of "knowing", which is what a testimony is, why do Mormons need to remind themselves what they "know"?

My body's muscles require regular exercise or else they will atrophy (or at least turn to flab). Brains need regular exercise or they will also atrophy. Even developing good character traits often requires regular attention, otherwise we will slip back into old habbits or into general laziness. If I don't keep practicing a foreign language (or even my native tongue, English), I will start losing my ability to speak it. Why would spiritual strength be any different?

Yes, muscles do atrophy, but knowledge works differently than muscle. Your brain stores information permanently. Using this analogy, if I am taught Joseph Smith received gold plates from an angel and I choose to believe it, if I don't remind myself of it periodically, thus excercising my knowledge of this, my brain will atrophy and that knowledge will be lost. That's just weird.

The church pits the natural man against the commandments of God. The goal is to become a higher form of being by mastering ones carnal tendencies. It takes constant diligence to do this, and if you stop for even a short while, you begin to resort back to the natural, carnal man. This is why keeping a testimony is so important, and why losing it is so detrimental.

The more I think about it, this is the most likely reason for the personal testimony maintenance. When we are away from church meetings and activities, the world outside of church is so different, and the beliefs and values are so different, that you will simply become part of the world without contantly reminding yourself of what you truly believe.

[_asbestosman]

Yes, muscles do atrophy, but knowledge works differently than muscle. Your brain stores information permanently. Using this analogy, if I am taught Joseph Smith received gold plates from an angel and I choose to believe it, if I don't remind myself of it periodically, thus excercising my knowledge of this, my brain will atrophy and that knowledge will be lost. That's just weird.

First of all I think that faithfulness in the church is more like a character trait than knowledge. Secondly knowledge does get lost without repetition. I noticed this phenomenon on my mission where I started to forget various things from Calculus because I hadn't really used them for a while (such as precisely how to use Simpson's rule to approximate integrals--I only remembered that it had to do with using parabolas instead of trapeziods).

[_The Nehor]

Keeping the knowledge that the gospel is true requires no maintenance. I have talked to people who left the Church 20 years ago who still believe it's true. A testimony is not acceptance of the fact. I addressed this in the Celestial Board and have tacked on my thoughts from there:

"The Gospel requires everything. Accepting a few theological statements is not accepting the Gospel. When visiting less-actives there are two types....the few who no longer believe it and the majority who still believe it but do nothing about it. Both lost their testimonies. The former will say it's not real. The latter will say it is but something stopped them. Pride, cowardice, self-righteousness are the big ones we harp on. The more common ones are ambivalence, fear, exhaustion, and despair.

If a testimony was a simple belief then all it would require to maintain it is for nothing conflicting to show up. I haven't read up on gravity lately but I still accept it. I take it into account but that's all. The Gospel tells me to kill part of myself and rise new. It tells me to become Christ. That means I need to know who he is before I can do it. He's also incredibly foreign to everything I know and most everyone around me. It's demanding. It doesn't get any easier with time. The road slopes up and from what I can see it just keeps going up. Sometimes I expect that I'll show up on Judgment Day panting, exhausted, and tired.

A testimony is not bland knowledge. It's more like conviction. Most people have gone through many phases of being driven for something with varying success, varying desire, and for varying durations. Finishing college, getting a specific career, winning someone's heart, working/fighting for a cause, becoming something you are not currently, passion for a hobby, protecting someone, building a friendship, losing weight, etc.

I know I should drop another 20-30 pounds and put on about 10-20 pounds of muscle. I doubt I will be shaken that that is a fact. Do I have the drive to back it up? That's the crux. Do I keep working out? What do I eat? How badly do I want it? I want the girl. What will I do to win her? What will I give up to create a relationship? I want to learn something. How much time will I spend in the books? How much tedium will I take to win the prize? Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it sucks.

I've accepted the truths the LDS Church teaches and the Gospel it proclaims. It's demands are high. The rewards are higher. I get divine help. Do I want it badly enough to live it? Do I have the discipline to examine my life, my beliefs, my actions, and all that I am to bring it into conformity with God's will. Finding out his will is no simple feat either. The Scriptures have the general plan, my life is specific. So after long periods of study I have to commune with God which is exhausting and hard. Then I have to be willing to give up ANYTHING he requires of me. Every day I have to come back and report some failure.....EVERY NIGHT. Is it worth it? I think so. He rewards with happiness and true self-worth derived from what I'm becoming and not what I am. I also choose to believe him when he tells me that every pain will be worth it.

That's tough to swallow and it's grueling to stay on the path. The Church is filled with active people who have given up. Most people I've seen leave have given up the conviction and desire to go on long before they stop coming to Church every Sunday."

[_Nephi]

I think for some a testimony is hard to maintain because testimonies were never supposed to stay stationary. They must grow or shrink, but they cannot just hold steady. I think those who's testimony holds stationary is because they are lukewarm in their faith to begin with. Testimonies that change show real spiritual trial, which is THE MAIN reason we are here right now. What hurts is to see someone's testimony change for something that may be worse, because they are in a trial as such that is altering their testimony as such. But sometimes people's testimony changes because they are learned new things and are growing spiritually.