Assuring a successful life journey

[_Who Knows]

I would be particularly interested to learn from you and other unbelievers whether you agree that for believers, particularly in terms of the spiritual/eternal aspect of life's journey, the restored gospel of Christ provides viable answers to many of the above questions? And, if so, what does that mean for those who may lose faith and become unbelievers?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I thought I already answered those two questions.

A few people have.

I'm still trying to figure out what wade's point is.

If the LDS church is true, then it's not only a viable path, it's the only path.

However, if it's not true, then that opens a whole range of possibilities. Is there a god? Is there a 'true' religion? Does religion matter to god? etc.

So the answer to your questions depends on what the 'destination' is. And since no one knows, it comes down to personal choice (what works for each person individually).

[_karl61]

I like the thoughts BUT it's easier to do when you are a leader than when you are a follower. If deep down you don't believe you have choise to do those things then they are just thoughts: For example, many LDS young men would like to chose there own journey but there are too many nosey nadines in the ward trying to direct the things that Wade listed.

[_wenglund]

Do you agree that for believers, particularly in terms of the spiritual/eternal aspect of life's journey, the restored gospel of Christ provides viable answers to many of these questions?

That goes without saying. If it didn't provide answers, why would they believe?

If so, what does that mean for those who may lose faith and become unbelievers?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Obviously, it means that we don't find viable answers in your religion. Seems pretty obvious to me.

That seems obvious to me as well.

What isn't so obvious is:

1) Whether the trip planning/implementation questions were key components in the loss of faith, or whether unbelief occured absent sufficient consideration thereof?

2) Whether the answers to some or all of the questions are lost or changed in consequence to unbelief?

3) And, if so, what then helps provide the unbeliever with answers to those questions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Do you agree that this is a viable way to help assure a successful life journey?

Sounds fine.

Do you agree that for believers, particularly in terms of the spiritual/eternal aspect of life's journey, the restored gospel of Christ provides viable answers to many of these questions?

Sure - for believers. But since no one really knows 'the purpose of the trip' or 'where we're going', etc., it's no better or worse than any other belief system - in terms of 'arriving' at the final destination.

I would say though, that it (the LDS church) makes the journey itself worse (but that's just me).

If so, what does that mean for those who may lose faith and become unbelievers?

Not much really - in terms of the final destination. But like I said, I think it makes the journey itself more enjoyable and fruitful. (but I'm sure it's different for everyone).

Just out of curiousity, how do you, as an unbeliever, now answer each of the planning and implementation questions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

What isn't so obvious is:

1) Whether the trip planning/implementation questions were key components in the loss of faith, or whether unbelief occured absent sufficient consideration thereof?

I can only answer for myself, but I was taught to follow truth, follow the spirit, and follow my conscience. Staying true to those core teachings led me to leave the LDS church, at least functionally.

2) Whether the answers to some or all of the questions are lost or changed in consequence to unbelief?

Well, sure, some of them did, but not all.

3) And, if so, what then helps provide the unbeliever with answers to those questions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

See the answer to question 1 above.

[_Who Knows]

Just out of curiousity, how do you, as an unbeliever, now answer each of the planning and implementation questions?

Well, it's all very fluid (since some of the answers are unknown or unknowable), but in essence, it all comes down to happiness. Happiness is the goal. Answer each of those questions with that in mind, and you'll have an idea.

[_wenglund]

Can you think of any other general questions that may be wise to ask?

No, but I think it is VERY unwise to ask "Who is coming with me?" Perhaps, "Who am I following there?" but, even that, I would say is quite unwise. Any question that may even HINT at the possibility to control those around you has the possibility to bring frustration, anger, anxiety, and unwarrented control.

I don't think of the question "who is coming with me?" in terms of control (i.e "who can I force to go with me?" or 'who will force me to follow them?"), but rather in terms of voluntary shared goals, asperation, and relationships (i.e. "who also has decided to go where I want to go, and would they like to go there with me").

Do you agree that this is a viable way to help assure a successful life journey?

I would say it's definitely a way. Possibly viable, but I would also propose that it's an entirely unfulfilling and over-analized approach, that leaves little-to-no room for enjoying the journey -- it's far too goal-based.

While it is certainly goal-based, I don't see why goals, per se, prevent one from enjoying the journey or make the journey unfulfilling. Granted, things can be over-analyzed, but that to me is a matter of degree, not a matter of fact. What, intrinsically in the goal-based templete keeps anyone from making "enjoyable and fulfilling journey" and "not over-anlizing" part of the goal? In fact, absent such goals and at least some level of analysis, then what will help assure fulfillment and enjoyment? And, how will one know if they are getting as much fulfillment and enjoyment as possible?

Do you agree that for believers, particularly in terms of the spiritual/eternal aspect of life's journey, the restored gospel of Christ provides viable answers to many of these questions?

No. I think it purports to, but on closer inspection, gives faulty tools and guidance. Like packing a bunch of granola bars to feed you on the way, but the discovering it's nothing but chocolate -- it'll make you feel satisfied and even rather good on the short term, but in the long term is quite unhealthy.

I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking the question from the point of view of an unbeliever, but from the point of view of a believer.

If so, what does that mean for those who may lose faith and become unbelievers?

It means that they have to look harder, and create stronger tools, and find smarter guidance. Or perhaps find a way to "Take the scenic route," and enjoy yourself on the way, instead of such intense focus on an invisible (and, IMHO, entirely boring) goal.

Okay. Have you found "stronger tools and smarter guidance"? Are you taking a "scenic route", and if so, what "scenic route" are you taking, and where does the "scenic route" end or go (or do you even know)? Do you have a destination in mind? And, if so, do you have a plan to get there and ways of determing whether you are progressing towards your destination or not?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Wade, if life is like planning a trip, isn't that sort of like saying that you're choosing your own journey?

Yes.

And wouldn't the implication for those who don't go with you be that they merely wanted to go on vacation somewhere else? Some people would rather go to Mexico and some prefer Europe, right?

Right.

Now what if it weren't so? What if everyone wanted to go on the same trip? And what if the best way to get to the destination involved trekking through back country and canoing across your favorite lake? Is that what you really want? A lake jam-packed with canoes and everyone and their dog trudging through and pissing in your fresh powder?

I see this as a matter of macro economics, and is dependent upon the limits of creativity and genius that may be brought to bear in working out a viable solution that will bring the greatest amount of joy to all parties concerned. That is how planes and helicopters were invented, and may have application in your hypothetical. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Engund-

[_keene]

Can you think of any other general questions that may be wise to ask?

No, but I think it is VERY unwise to ask "Who is coming with me?" Perhaps, "Who am I following there?" but, even that, I would say is quite unwise. Any question that may even HINT at the possibility to control those around you has the possibility to bring frustration, anger, anxiety, and unwarrented control.

I don't think of the question "who is coming with me?" in terms of control (I.e "who can I force to go with me?" or 'who will force me to follow them?"), but rather in terms of voluntary shared goals, asperation, and relationships (I.e. "who also has decided to go where I want to go, and would they like to go there with me").

I would have to agree with this sentiment, although I think asking it as part of the plan can lead to some false expectations. One should enjoy the company they're with, but plan for themselves.

Do you agree that this is a viable way to help assure a successful life journey?

I would say it's definitely a way. Possibly viable, but I would also propose that it's an entirely unfulfilling and over-analized approach, that leaves little-to-no room for enjoying the journey -- it's far too goal-based.

While it is certainly goal-based, I don't see why goals, per se, prevent one from enjoying the journey or make the journey unfulfilling. Granted, things can be over-analyzed, but that to me is a matter of degree, not a matter of fact. What, intrinsically in the goal-based templete keeps anyone from making "enjoyable and fulfilling journey" and "not over-anlizing" part of the goal? In fact, absent such goals and at least some level of analysis, then what will help assure fulfillment and enjoyment? And, how will one know if they are getting as much fulfillment and enjoyment as possible?

I think the term "goals" is what is intrisically wrong. Instead, I would say "checkpoints." Perhaps it's just the way I interpret the word "goal," but in my mind, goal equates to a sense of lacking or needing -- it creates an image of not yet having enough. I'm far too reminded of people saying "if only I had [blank], then I'd be happy!"

Perhaps by looking for checkpoints, instead of goals, one can find fulfillment within themselves, or along the journey.

As for how one will know if they are getting as much fulfillment and enjoyment as possible -- you'll know, because you'll stop asking if you are.

Do you agree that for believers, particularly in terms of the spiritual/eternal aspect of life's journey, the restored gospel of Christ provides viable answers to many of these questions?

No. I think it purports to, but on closer inspection, gives faulty tools and guidance. Like packing a bunch of granola bars to feed you on the way, but the discovering it's nothing but chocolate -- it'll make you feel satisfied and even rather good on the short term, but in the long term is quite unhealthy.

I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking the question from the point of view of an unbeliever, but from the point of view of a believer.

I think my answer still applies -- even if I believe chocolate to be good for me, eventually, I will become unhealthy. Even if the label says it meets all my dietary requirements!

Basically, if I delude myself into thinking I have the answers, I think my journey will suck.

If so, what does that mean for those who may lose faith and become unbelievers?

It means that they have to look harder, and create stronger tools, and find smarter guidance. Or perhaps find a way to "Take the scenic route," and enjoy yourself on the way, instead of such intense focus on an invisible (and, IMHO, entirely boring) goal.

Okay. Have you found "stronger tools and smarter guidance"? Are you taking a "scenic route", and if so, what "scenic route" are you taking, and where does the "scenic route" end or go (or do you even know)? Do you have a destination in mind? And, if so, do you have a plan to get there and ways of determing whether you are progressing towards your destination or not?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I have found stronger tools and smarter guidance, yes. And, yes, I am taking a scenic approach to living my life. A few of the checkpoints along the way involve: Mastery over self, mastery with money, mastery with business, mastery with social interaction, moving to seattle, visiting tokyo, working with new halucinatory technologies, the list goes on.

I have no final destination in mind, except the plausibility of death (depending on technological acheivements in my life-time). However, with each checkpoint, I have a plan, and a feedback mechanism to determine progress, and to change the plan if necessary.

I suppose, if you break down each checkpoint to it's own goal, then your questions can still apply -- the main difference is I work towards all of them simultaniously, and I allow new plans, goals, and "trips" to be added all along the way. I'm quite willing to stall progress towards a checkpoint for the purpose of fun.

In all reality, I don't care if I get to my checkpoints or not. The point of a successful life isn't the success, it's the life.

[_wenglund]

I appreciate the responses thus far, and I wish to drill down into the details and specifics of what some of you have said. But, at the moment I have other obligations to attend to, and I will try to get back this topic either later this evening or in the next day or so.

In the interim, if anyone has anything further to say on the matter, I would be pleased to read it later.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-