I wore a burka today.

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_The Nehor
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _The Nehor »

truth dancer wrote:
I almost wonder if there really is something in the female psyche that demands subordination.


No, no and NO!


Is this based on scientific evidence or faith?
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_Hally McIlrath
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _Hally McIlrath »

antishock8 wrote:I think taking the Tureg tribe and using them as an example of men veling themselves is... To say the least... Seriously misguided. You might as well tell Muslims that the FLDS are an appropriate examle of Christian practices.


But I didn't do that. I used the Tuareg as an example of the organic fluidity of Muslim belief and practice. Just as you could use the FLDS as an example of the same, in Christianity. As such, perfectly valid, and not at all "misguided."

I think Islamic doctrine Trump's tribal influence. In other words the reason why the ajority of Muslims wear the hijab and so many cover themselves from head to toe is because Islamic doctrine is recognized as god-inspired... Not tribal custom.


Egyptian women are not required to wear the veil, and they don't. I think that's true of Lebanese women as well. That would argue to its being cultural.

Infantalizing men and hiding women are effective ways at controlling the population, apparently.


I can't argue with that.

It's demoralizing for someone like myself who has two daughters that he's trying to raise in a world that would seek to marginalize them based on their gender.


Uh...I wore it for five minutes to see what it would be like to be a woman in Afghanistan. If it's any consolation to you, I also had my eleven-year-old son try it on, so he could know what it was like to be a woman in Afghanistan. And if I had my way, I'd have Dick Cheney, George w. Bush, and Donald Rumsfeld do the same thing. You see, I think there's too much of the assumption that you can see exactly what the nature of the world is from your own constricted viewpoint. I hope I caught the dichotomy of wearing the burka in my post. It's beautifully feminine, with elaborate embroidery and shiny satin. But also a tool of misogyny. And I felt at the same time completely constrained by it, but also, delightfully anonymous. I'd never know there was any nuance to it at all, if I hadn't tried it on, and I'm glad I did. I feel a little more solidarity with the women of Afghanistan that I didn't have before.

And THAT is the value of stepping outside of your comfort zone to see the world through someone else's eyes.

I almost wonder if there really is something in the female psyche that demands subordination.


There might be. I can only speak for myself, but if I had utter faith in a man, put my full trust in him and his integrity and intelligence and judgment, and he said, "I know that you want to do X, but I'm going to have to insist that you do Y, because I think you might be making a mistake" then I'd acquiesce to his better judgment. In fact, I'd be glad he kept me from what might be a terrible mistake.

That's different, though, from blind obedience.

But I do know if a daughter of mine voluntarily placed a burqa on herself I would be extremely disappointed in her. Perhaps I believe in antiquated notions of standing for something rather than accommodating everything...


So you don't let them dress up like medieval princesses for Halloween?
I have been astonished that Men could die Martyrs for religion - I have shudder'd at it - I shudder no more - I could be martyr'd for my Religion - Love is my religion - I could die for that -
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_skippy the dead
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _skippy the dead »

Hally McIlrath wrote:
But I do know if a daughter of mine voluntarily placed a burqa on herself I would be extremely disappointed in her. Perhaps I believe in antiquated notions of standing for something rather than accommodating everything...


So you don't let them dress up like medieval princesses for Halloween?


Actually, I sure as hell don't. And we don't have the swarm of Disney princesses in our house either. When my little girls ask why, I tell them that they can be so much more than simple little princesses, and that I don't want that to be their aspirations. Yes, I'm a bit weird on that point.

I was actually pondering the burqa issue last week, when I was at a local amusement park on a very hot day. I was with my family in a kids' area where there were some water spouts and such for kids to play in to cool themselves. Many adults availed themselves of it, too, since it was near 90. While watching one of my kids play in the water, I noticed two relatively young women (late 20s/early 30s) in full length black burqas (sans veils, but heads fully covered) with their children. At first, they placed their hands in the water, enjoying the cooling effects. That led to then splashing their faces, while soaking their arms (still fully covered) up to their elbows. After just a few minutes, the two women were standing full on in the middle of the water spouts, completely soaking themselves top to bottom and enjoying every moment of it. Truth be told, once the fabric became wet and clingy, you could tell the ladies had very nice figures.

I was glad that they were able to at least cool themselves - in my tank top and shorts I was sweating plenty. But at least my sweat could evaporate and work as the natural cooling system it was intended to be. I couldn't imagine how it must feel to be draped head to toe in black cloth, with no ventilation or hopes of cooling.

And then I saw the husband of one of the ladies videoing the women and children playing in the fountains. Wearing a t-shirt, shorts and sandals.

While these ladies did everything possible to cover themselves, despite the attendant suffering in the heat, their spouses were not likewise required to do so. A perfect example of the issues inherent in that code. The woman must keep herself hidden; the man, not so much.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
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_Hally McIlrath
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _Hally McIlrath »

skippy the dead wrote:I noticed two relatively young women (late 20s/early 30s) in full length black burqas (sans veils, but heads fully covered) with their children.


That's funny -- that reminds me: while I was still living in England, we took my son to Legoland Windsor, and there was a woman there in full hijab. Everything covered but her eyes. She looked like this:

Image

She was with her husband, who was obviously Middle Eastern, and some dark- and curly-haired children, but as I got up close, I realized her eyes were very blue, and her skin, what I could see of it, was as fair as mine. She was as Caucasian as I am. I wondered if she veiled herself from head to foot to avoid what I imagine must have been pretty savage insults, or if her husband was very strict and required it of her. Or perhaps it was freely her choice and what she wanted in order to honor her religious beliefs.

It was a warm day then, too, but alas, no fountains for her to play in.

Have you seen Muslim women's beachwear? They call it the "burqini" :)

Image

http://www.ahiida.com/index.php?a=subcats&cat=20

While these ladies did everything possible to cover themselves, despite the attendant suffering in the heat, their spouses were not likewise required to do so. A perfect example of the issues inherent in that code. The woman must keep herself hidden; the man, not so much.


You know, this topic sort of brings up the interesting theme of what a person feels compelled to do in the name of their religious beliefs; I'm sure most Muslim women would vehemently defend their choice to wear the hijab in purely religious terms; much as Mormon women would be affronted at the suggestion that the garments or the veil in the temple were somehow a form of subjugation, rather than a fully-embraced religious mandate. Neither would see those things as overtly sexist in origin.
I have been astonished that Men could die Martyrs for religion - I have shudder'd at it - I shudder no more - I could be martyr'd for my Religion - Love is my religion - I could die for that -
John Keats
_skippy the dead
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _skippy the dead »

Hally McIlrath wrote:much as Mormon women would be affronted at the suggestion that the garments or the veil in the temple were somehow a form of subjugation, rather than a fully-embraced religious mandate. Neither would see those things as overtly sexist in origin.


I fully saw the veil as a form of subjugation, but considering the role of women in the church, I was not surprised by it (it's not like that was the only place such a distinction was made!). At least the garments were equal-opportunity coverings (even though the men's shirts were a bit more comfortable).

And truly, if a woman decides to forego temple attendance or wearing garments, one can still be a member of the church. But Muslim women and the burqa - there's not really the same "choice."
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_antishock8
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _antishock8 »

But, that's the point. The 14 year-old wife of Warren Jeffs was defending him. The teenaged mothers of the cult were defending the practices that are clearly, but unknowingly to them, oppressive. Of course Muslim women defend their right to subjugate themselves. They have that right. The problem is the creeping generational effect religious oppression has on the female gender, AND the societal implications it has for women who want freedom, but are denied it because a society, once freer than it is now, denies those rights to women. These basic humans rights should be vigorously defended. Constantly defended. Tolerance for intolerant customs, laws, practices, and people leads to enslavement. I don't need to know what a rope around my neck feels like in order to know what the end result is.

Egyptian women are not required to wear the veil, and they don't. I think that's true of Lebanese women as well. That would argue to its being cultural.


And do you know why? Because they're secular governments that are being funded by secular Western governments that preserve those rights. In Egypt, home of the Muslim Brotherhood (al qaeda ring a bell?) and in Lebanon (HAMAS ring a bell?) both governments are at serious risk of being overthrown by religious organizations that will summarily erase that particular freedom of choice for women. It is the US and Europe that stems the tide of Islamic supremacism in those countries. For how long... That's the question...

Uh...I wore it for five minutes to see what it would be like to be a woman in Afghanistan. If it's any consolation to you, I also had my eleven-year-old son try it on, so he could know what it was like to be a woman in Afghanistan. And if I had my way, I'd have Dick Cheney, George w. Bush, and Donald Rumsfeld do the same thing.


What??? If it weren't for those three men Afghanistan would still be under the thumb of the Taleban, and Iraq would be under the thumb of an autocrat. Freedom only exists in those two countries because of those men. Womens' rights in Afghanistan increased exponentially because of them, and they've desired that. Iraq... Well, Iraq is a potpourri that is best left to anther thread. I have NO idea why you would think those men should try on a burqa, even metaphorically.

You see, I think there's too much of the assumption that you can see exactly what the nature of the world is from your own constricted viewpoint. I hope I caught the dichotomy of wearing the burka in my post. It's beautifully feminine, with elaborate embroidery and shiny satin. But also a tool of misogyny. And I felt at the same time completely constrained by it, but also, delightfully anonymous. I'd never know there was any nuance to it at all, if I hadn't tried it on, and I'm glad I did. I feel a little more solidarity with the women of Afghanistan that I didn't have before.


It did come through. And I, personally, give you credit for writing out something that illustrated that. I understand where you were coming from on the one hand, but on the other it was a complete mystery to me why a Western woman would 1) do that, and 2) express the sentiments that you did. I think what I find difficulty with is the ambivalence of your piece. I understand I'm projecting my fear of loss (potential implications of Sharia on a global scale) on you, and that's not fair, though.

So you don't let them dress up like medieval princesses for Halloween?


I haven't had the chance, but would most likely discourage anything that I viewed as overly gender-role specific. But I haven't had to do that, either. They've naturally chosen costumes that have been unique or creative. However, I'm not such a fanatic that would forbid it. If they choose that route then that's their choice. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything or feel great about it, but on the other hand I get to share my opinion.. ;)
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

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_Hally McIlrath
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _Hally McIlrath »

antishock8 wrote:Of course Muslim women defend their right to subjugate themselves. They have that right. The problem is the creeping generational effect religious oppression has on the female gender, AND the societal implications it has for women who want freedom, but are denied it because a society, once freer than it is now, denies those rights to women. These basic humans rights should be vigorously defended. Constantly defended. Tolerance for intolerant customs, laws, practices, and people leads to enslavement. I don't need to know what a rope around my neck feels like in order to know what the end result is.


Hey -- I agree with you, but what if they don't want it? What do you do? Force it on them? And then, don't you become like the very soul-sucking human-rights-ignoring Taliban nightmare you were trying to save them from?

And do you know why? Because they're secular governments that are being funded by secular Western governments that preserve those rights. In Egypt, home of the Muslim Brotherhood (al qaeda ring a bell?) and in Lebanon (HAMAS ring a bell?) both governments are at serious risk of being overthrown by religious organizations that will summarily erase that particular freedom of choice for women. It is the US and Europe that stems the tide of Islamic supremacism in those countries. For how long... That's the question...


Sure, but do you see how you've just proved my point? It's for reasons that extend beyond religious decree, whether it be political/cultural mandate, or personal choice. I find the Koran to be just as slippery as the Bible; anything can be justified since it is self-contradictory in nature. That's how you can have liberal Islam and fundamental Taliban and the desert nomad Tuareg all under the same "Islam" umbrella.

What??? If it weren't for those three men Afghanistan would still be under the thumb of the Taleban, and Iraq would be under the thumb of an autocrat. Freedom only exists in those two countries because of those men. Womens' rights in Afghanistan increased exponentially because of them, and they've desired that. Iraq... Well, Iraq is a potpourri that is best left to anther thread. I have NO idea why you would think those men should try on a burqa, even metaphorically.


I think they should try it on to appreciate the inherent dichotomy. I think they should try it on to understand. I think they should try it on as punishment because of the distressing and still-probably-true rumor that none of them could give you a working definition of the difference between Sunni and Shiite Muslims, even though they were prepared to raze to the ground an entire country, apparently on the mistaken notion they'd be "greeted as liberators."

And by the way, if you think their ham-fisted, ram-rodded Blitzkrieg of Afghanistan, ostensibly to eradicate the odious Taliban, but in practice only allowing the rise of the equally odious Northern Alliance, which is FULL of defected Taliban fighters who merely traded outfits and shaved their beards but STILL demand women to wear the burka and hide in fear just like before, is "freedom," well then, oh yes, pummeling an already pummeled country to dust was SO worth it, and God Bless America, and can't you just smell the scent of McDonald's Freedom Fries hanging in the sunset air over Kabul...

I think what I find difficulty with is the ambivalence of your piece. I understand I'm projecting my fear of loss (potential implications of Sharia on a global scale) on you, and that's not fair, though.


Okay. :) I get where you're coming from.

I haven't had the chance, but would most likely discourage anything that I viewed as overly gender-role specific. But I haven't had to do that, either. They've naturally chosen costumes that have been unique or creative. However, I'm not such a fanatic that would forbid it. If they choose that route then that's their choice. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything or feel great about it, but on the other hand I get to share my opinion.. ;)


Okay. :)
I have been astonished that Men could die Martyrs for religion - I have shudder'd at it - I shudder no more - I could be martyr'd for my Religion - Love is my religion - I could die for that -
John Keats
_antishock8
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _antishock8 »

Hally McIlrath wrote:...even though they were prepared to raze to the ground an entire country, apparently on the mistaken notion they'd be "greeted as liberators."

And by the way, if you think their ham-fisted, ram-rodded Blitzkrieg of Afghanistan, ostensibly to eradicate the odious Taliban, but in practice only allowing the rise of the equally odious Northern Alliance, which is FULL of defected Taliban fighters who merely traded outfits and shaved their beards but STILL demand women to wear the burka and hide in fear just like before, is "freedom," well then, oh yes, pummeling an already pummeled country to dust was SO worth it, and God Bless America, and can't you just smell the scent of McDonald's Freedom Fries hanging in the sunset air over Kabul...


Where in the hell are you taking these whacked out, insanely psychotic notions from??? I know I'm being rude, but what you're saying is so incredibly infuriating as compared to reality that it dismisses the efforts of thousands of State Department (and other agencies) types who do the following:

http://afghanistan.usaid.gov/en/index.aspx

http://trade.gov/afghanistan/

http://www.usaid.gov/stories/archiveane.html#af

This is what I hate about politics. No matter what good is done it's summarily dismissed with exagerrated notions and lies. There was never an intent to level Afghanistan by the Administration nor the State Department. And to think anyone could negotiate with the Taleban is... Well, it's not worth the time to explain why it was an impossibility.

I'm not a Bush administration apologist, by the way. I just take a balanced approach to what is being said and done by our politicos. There IS more freedom in Afghanistan now than before. A lot more. There is more opportunity. There is progress. And if we leave, and take our big bad guns with us... They will come back and regress the country immediately. For you to be so blithely dismissive is incredibly offensive.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

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_Hally McIlrath
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _Hally McIlrath »

Okay, Antishock, here's what you said:

If it weren't for those three men Afghanistan would still be under the thumb of the Taleban...Freedom only exists in those two countries because of those men. Womens' rights in Afghanistan increased exponentially because of them, and they've desired that.


In fact, Northern Alliance/Taliban warlords (one and the same) STILL force women to wear the Burka and sequester themselves just as before. Outside of Kandahar and Kabul (and, arguably, inside) life is no different for these women than life under the Taliban. So what "women's rights" are they enjoying? Please tell me, if a woman was forced to wear the Burka while the Taliban was in power, and now is still forced to wear it by the Northern Alliance (Taliban) warlords, what tangible difference are these women experiencing in their human rights?
I have been astonished that Men could die Martyrs for religion - I have shudder'd at it - I shudder no more - I could be martyr'd for my Religion - Love is my religion - I could die for that -
John Keats
_antishock8
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Re: I wore a burka today.

Post by _antishock8 »

Hally McIlrath wrote:Okay, Antishock, here's what you said:

If it weren't for those three men Afghanistan would still be under the thumb of the Taleban...Freedom only exists in those two countries because of those men. Womens' rights in Afghanistan increased exponentially because of them, and they've desired that.


In fact, Northern Alliance/Taliban warlords (one and the same) STILL force women to wear the Burka and sequester themselves just as before. Outside of Kandahar and Kabul (and, arguably, inside) life is no different for these women than life under the Taliban. So what "women's rights" are they enjoying? Please tell me, if a woman was forced to wear the Burka while the Taliban was in power, and now is still forced to wear it by the Northern Alliance (Taliban) warlords, what tangible difference are these women experiencing in their human rights?


Did you actually bother to check the links before you posted this?
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
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