there's this thing called "The Way"

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_cwald
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _cwald »

zeezrom wrote:wayfarer,

Have you yet considered becoming a Bhikkhu?

It appears you very much appreciate their ways and thence might do well to join them. That would be pretty rad.

Zee.


Agreed.

Wayfarer...I love your stuff...it makes a lot of "sense" to me. But I doubt it will appreciated much at MDDB or here. I suggest we keep it at staylds and NOM. :)
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_excom
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _excom »

I have this to say about that: Wayfarer, you are a very good poster, and Night lion, you are one of my least favorite posters. You do draw me in a bit, but I think it is because you annoy me so much. To be fair to you it is simply any one that thinks they have all the answers, and you just come across to me as one of those sort of folks, sorry if I offend you if I am honest, but hey, it is what it is. Wayfarer, I would recommend not getting drawn in with nightlion. But now my thoughts, one of the phrases that I picked up from teachings of the church is, "the natural order of things". I still use this in my non Mormon thinking way because it still makes sense to me. The WAY things are done, created, or happen, seem to be natural to me, and seem to be done in order. I do at times feel enlightened when I feel like something makes extreme sense to me, and I sort of understand the WAY things come about. This could be things like human nature, mountain formation, animal behavior, aspen groves, the fact that water always wins, gravity, magnetic force, kinetic energy, and a few others. I don't feel like I have the definitive answer to any of these things, but I sort of get why the Mayan calender ending on the Winter solstice would give us the Dec. 21st date. I actually don't know if a Jesus Christ exists, but in a biblical self description of being the Way, the Truth, and the Light, it seems to make more sense to me that the idea of something existing that is absolute in all "ways things are done", absolute in all truth, and absolute in understanding things in the exact Light they exist, is something to be sought after. This could be and ideal, a being of some sort, or a quest that makes us as humans endure in exploration, education, thought provocation, or purpose of existence. Wayfarer, I appreciate your thought provoking thoughts.
_Tobin
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _Tobin »

wayfarer,

I have to disagree with Nightlion on this. I very much like the eastern religious and philosophical traditions. I certainly believe that it is a very good way to view Mormonism and also a good way to criticise it. Thank you for your post wayfarer. You've given me a few things to think about and I hope I can ask you some questions about it as I delve into it. I'm still considering what you said and trying to come to terms with the material you cited.

Tobin
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Chap
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _Chap »

wayfarer wrote:I cannot translate this accurately for you: dao ke dao fei chang dao. But here is a shot. "The way that we can follow is by no means a fixed way.: it's line one of the Tao Te Ching, the most translated text in the world outside of the Bible.


Maybe we should not use the words 'accurate translation' here, since there is much dispute about exactly what the ancient writer of those words intended to convey, so we do not know what target we are trying to hit with our translation. How about 'definitive'?

But as you know, one quite well supported rendering of the phrase you quote is 'The Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way". I rather like that one, since it renders pretty provisional all the rest of the Book of Five Thousand Characters that follows it, and gives us license to treat with levity and skepticism any text or person who takes it upon themselves to explain to the rest of us what the Dao is. (Of course that does not mean there is any rule against talking about the Dao, if you feel like it. But no-one gets to speak authoritatively about it, including me for a start.)

So refreshingly different from The Gospel!
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_honorentheos
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _honorentheos »

wayfarer wrote:perhaps it's no surprise that I might talk about this topic.

Maybe I should be writing this in my blog. But I'm kind of in a pensive mood. and just throwing words out there.

i"ve spent the better part of 20 years in my 25 year Nom/Middle Way journey (i didn't know about the Nom term until about a year ago), engaged, maybe even obsessed about 'the way'.

the way. the way things work. the way that a snowflake exhibits order from the underlying capability of hydroxyl molecules forming weak bonds at specific angles. The way a stream flows. the way humans interact....

this thing called 'the way' sometimes can me 'karma'...what goes around comes around...so there! my mopologist friends...

Thanks for sharing this, wayfarer. Beautiful and centering, and a much needed perspective. I hope you share more of your thoughts.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_wayfarer
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _wayfarer »

Chap wrote:Maybe we should not use the words 'accurate translation' here, since there is much dispute about exactly what the ancient writer of those words intended to convey, so we do not know what target we are trying to hit with our translation. How about 'definitive'?

But as you know, one quite well supported rendering of the phrase you quote is 'The Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way". I rather like that one, since it renders pretty provisional all the rest of the Book of Five Thousand Characters that follows it, and gives us license to treat with levity and skepticism any text or person who takes it upon themselves to explain to the rest of us what the Dao is. (Of course that does not mean there is any rule against talking about the Dao, if you feel like it. But no-one gets to speak authoritatively about it, including me for a start.)

So refreshingly different from The Gospel!

Ah, someone who is familiar with the texts... of course, Zhuangzi wanted to find someone who had forgotten the words so that he could have a real conversation!

I don't believe it's different from the "Gospel", provided we understand the gospel as being simply "Truth". In translating laozi, I found, essentially, the phrase "health to the naval, marrow to the bones" sorted into the text. One might think that Laozi was familiar with western scripture...or not.

As for 'spoken' or 'followed', or even the idea that there might be a definitive translation of laozi. the usage of 'dao' as a verb is rare, but laozi uses it in dao ke DAO fei chang dao. No one really knows what this meaning might be. Later, the idea of 'dao' being someone's doctrine -- as in Confucius' dao -- implies that you might be talking about doctrine, hence there is a common (but not definitive) translation that the second DAO is 'spoken'. But I find this a stretch.

Bear in mind that in 1912, confucian learning, and especially study of the Yi Jing, was essentially disfavored. Then, in 1947, it was all but eliminated. Modern translations and commentaries after Wilhelm no longer reflected direct experience with sages who lived their lives studying the changes. When we understand laozi in light of the Yi, the concept of a fixed, immovable "dao" is impossible. There is no such thing as "chang dao"/"constant/eternal/unchanging way". Dao is a flow -- it is in the motion of things, in the use of things, never some constant ideal as in what the west describes in plato's forms and universals. Dao is 'tendency' -- the 'way things work' -- absolutely -- and yet, the way things work is ALWAYS in a state of change, albeit in some cases, very very slowly.

I do reject the 'dao that can be spoken is not a constant/the eternal way' translation, especially as it implies that 'dao' is so beyond understanding that you cannot talk about it. While that which we speak is only a finger pointing to the moon, the direction is important. The idea you can't talk about it is harmful, because (1) it implies an ideal (as in plato's forms) not present in chinese philosophy, (2) sort of re-inforces that only an ordained daoist/buddhist priest can really take you there (b***s***), and (3) it leads at least in zen-buddhism to the koan/dharma combat technique, which I find does not help understanding for the vast majority of people.

You don't get into the ineffibility of dao until the neo-taoist movement 4-7 centuries after the texts were written. The daoist texts essentially started maturing during the jixia academy in around 300 BCE, and then fully matured during the reign of Wen and Jing in the early Han. It's illustrative to see how the Huanglao movement during the early han applied the texts: as practical imperatives for governing -- essentially laissez-faire (wuwei) libertarianism. And after 50 years of this type of governing, the country had a professional, competent civil service, 3% taxation rate, universal healthcare and social security, peace with the huns, and a prosperity so bountiful that the grain was rotting in the granaries. This is seriously true, and completely amusing as to how they achieved peace with the huns. taoism, particularly, huanglao taoism actually worked quite well. And no one was going around saying that you couldn't talk about it. It was practical political philosophy.

So to me, it's a lot about the 'gospel' -- all truth. If it is in the category of all true things existing, then it should be part of the gospel.
_zeezrom
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _zeezrom »

When I was trying to convert Cambodians to become LDS on my mission, I remember often getting frustrated with them. Why did they always have to keep saying "yes" to everything? They agreed with all our ideas. They seemed to agree with the discussions.

But they wouldn't commit to do anything about it.

It frustrated me to no end until one day...

I finally decided that we should just be friends.

...then the ZL/DL/MP started getting our asses for not converting enough people.

The vicious cycle of a missionary's life.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_Chap
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _Chap »

wayfarer - basically I am delighted to read the kind of posts you are contributing here. It is so good to have something from a completely non-theistic perspective, as well as from outside the parts of the world where the Abrahamic varieties of theism have dominated.

Having said that, and being as I am an anonymous coward who has no claim to know anything in particular, I hope you won't mind if I suggest that there is room for discussion about some of the things that you assert in your post (such as, for instance, the provision of universal health care and social security under the Han in the second century BCE). But this is not the place for that kind of debate, perhaps?

Of more general interest: have you ever looked at the translation of the Lao Zi book by D.C. Lau, I wonder? The accompanying essays are quite interesting on the historical evidence relating to such questions as, for instance, whether there ever was such a person as 'Lao Zi' at all. It is rather appropriate, is it not, to see even the author of the world's most famous 'Daoist' text disappearing before our eyes?

(Relevant to this board: Some early accounts of the origins of the text make reference to a mysterious figure called 'Old Dan', believe it or not. How can that be a coincidence?)
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Username
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _Username »

What a fascinating thread I've stumbled across. There is indeed a common thread running through the "God within" approaches of Eastern religions, including (as someone pointed out) Eastern Christianity. I am Eastern Orthodox and ordered this book recently. I am looking forward to reading it. Some here might also find it to be of interest.

http://www.sainthermanpress.com/Catalog ... o_book.htm
_bcspace
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Re: there's this thing called "The Way"

Post by _bcspace »

this thing called 'the way' sometimes can me 'karma'...what goes around comes around...so there! my mopologist friends...


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