angsty wrote:This is an interesting and sensitive piece. I appreciate Mattsson's candor.
“The Roman Catholic Church has had 2,000 years to work through the hiccups in its history,” said Terryl L. Givens, a professor of English, literature and religion at the University of Richmond and a Mormon believer. “Mormonism is still an adolescent religion.”
Mormons typically believe Mormonism is exceptional as a religion and religious institution-- especially compared with Catholicism. If we're supposed to believe that Mormonism is credible as anything more than just another man-made faith running an expected course, explaining its development by bringing attention to the church's immaturity in relation to the RCC (which Mormons believe to be in full-blown apostasy) seems a very odd move.
Well, historically if one considers how many popes were murderers...or things like orgies in the Vatican, I am not sure any investigation of Catholic history would be favorable to them. Then again, all social institutions can be show badly. Check out anything dealing with the history of the USA.
Ironically I do believe the LDS Church must be more honest in regards to its history. Otherwise we get many people who will just go away while others wind up joining Mormon fundamentalist groups who, sad to say, are far more versed in history than most members.
Mormon Stories has recently released a transcript of the 2010 Fireside where they tried to answer his questions. Here is one response that sums it all up Stormy,
Much of what you get about history comes from historians from the people like me who do the best they can under the circumstances of their time. And then somebody else comes along, later, with new discoveries, new documents, and they rewrite it. OK?
So it’s — don't put the responsibility on the prophet, put it on ordinary people like me who do the best we know how to do it.
I've posted the link under " Event: Special Fireside For Disaffected Swedish Saints"
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
said Mr. Givens, who hosted a similar discussion in July in Provo, Utah, and has others planned in the United States. The church is not sponsoring the sessions, Mr. Givens said, but local bishops give their permission.
I thought these events were approved by church leadership, but now it appears I was mistaken. Really the church has done nothing for the average doubter. FAIR has tried, Givens is trying, but the prophets, and the apostles do nothing. Allegedly there will be essays to engage these issues at some point in the future. I'll believe them when I see them. So glad to see them finally paying the piper for whitewashing history.
Bring on the essays. Let's have a conversation about Joseph marrying his hired help. Let's have everyone hear the story of the proposal to Lucy Walker. Sure some will continue to believe, but I'm betting conversions will take a beating. At least those who stay in will do so knowing the whole story. The members have always deserved at least that much.
Not to mention the young ladies for who he was guardian ...
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
I think this is great. The more exposure like this, the better. The leaders have been lousy at answering tough questions. Also their treatment of those who doubt is shameful. They are simply going to have to address this and it'll be interesting to watch.
This paragraph made me smile:
Some church leaders are well aware of the doubters in their midst. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, who serves in the church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the governing body just below the three-member First Presidency), said in April while addressing the church’s semiannual general conference in Salt Lake City: “Please don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood and resolved. They do, and they will.”
I remember hearing Holland state that and thinking, "Yes...don't hyperventilate when you discover the truth! But, also do not expect any help or answers from me!" (Remember his correspondence and treatment of his "good friend" Tom Phillips.)
said Mr. Givens, who hosted a similar discussion in July in Provo, Utah, and has others planned in the United States. The church is not sponsoring the sessions, Mr. Givens said, but local bishops give their permission.
I thought these events were approved by church leadership, but now it appears I was mistaken. Really the church has done nothing for the average doubter. FAIR has tried, Givens is trying, but the prophets, and the apostles do nothing. Allegedly there will be essays to engage these issues at some point in the future. I'll believe them when I see them. So glad to see them finally paying the piper for whitewashing history.
Bring on the essays. Let's have a conversation about Joseph marrying his hired help. Let's have everyone hear the story of the proposal to Lucy Walker. Sure some will continue to believe, but I'm betting conversions will take a beating. At least those who stay in will do so knowing the whole story. The members have always deserved at least that much.
Not to mention the young ladies for whom he was guardian ... ETA: snuck in an "m" in an attempt to avoid the grammar police - I hope it's not too late
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
'Eric Hawkins, a church spokesman, said that “every church faces this challenge,” adding, “The answer is not to try to silence critics, but to provide as much information and as much support as possible to those who may be affected.” Mr. Hawkins also said the Mormon Church, which counts 14 million members worldwide, added about one million members every three years.'
Well, at least they do the right thing. They don't try to hide information, or suppress doubts, right?
That's a sign of a true believer, someone who thinks that providing as much information will some how help the Mormon Church. Information is an anathema to the Mormon Church.
malkie wrote:Of course, saying that you provide information and support is a bit different from actually providing information and support, isn't it?
Indeed, but I'll take Mr Hawkins at face value (until I have reason to suspect otherwise) that he thinks that his Church actually dos provide information and support.
'Eric Hawkins, a church spokesman, said that “every church faces this challenge,” adding, “The answer is not to try to silence critics, but to provide as much information and as much support as possible to those who may be affected.” Mr. Hawkins also said the Mormon Church, which counts 14 million members worldwide, added about one million members every three years.'
Well, at least they do the right thing. They don't try to hide information, or suppress doubts, right?
That's a sign of a true believer, someone who thinks that providing as much information will some how help the Mormon Church. Information is an anathema to the Mormon Church.
sock puppet wrote:
malkie wrote:Of course, saying that you provide information and support is a bit different from actually providing information and support, isn't it?
Indeed, but I'll take Mr Hawkins at face value (until I have reason to suspect otherwise) that he thinks that his Church actually dos provide information and support.
I guess, perhaps. Is the article itself not a reasonable indicator that the church does not do so?
If you were a spokesperson for an organization, would you not take the time and effort to determine how much truth there was in the statements that you made on behalf of that organization?
Would not any reasonable person?
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
