Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

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_Symmachus
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _Symmachus »

Tobin wrote:
We are talking about SEALED craft propelled by the waves with artificial light that could flip over and not dump the occupants on their heads with all their belongings and waste. If such craft were actually built, they were engineering marvels and I doubt carrying elephants is much of a stretch.


Astonishing, Tolbert.
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_palerobber
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _palerobber »

Runtu wrote:
Pre-Columbian traditions from Mexico tell of monstrous ogre-like giants who once inhabited the region and were subsequently killed following the arrival of Aztec ancestors. These tales attribute some human characteristics to these legendary giants, while other ones seem less so. The giants were said to have long tapering arms and could tear up trees as if they were lettuce.



Runtu,

footnote 11 of that FAIR article also directly cites Acosta (in addition to Torquemada) and the good Father does in fact use the word "lettices" in his description (see p. 449-454 excepted below).

reading Acosta, we find that what FAIR breathlessly paints as "monstrous ogre-like giants" are just a pre-agrarian tribe (of humans) called the Chichimecas, and Acosta further explains that there are still tribes like this living in New Spain. so these are not "legendary giants" but rather an actual displaced people whom the victors created some tall tales about (though Acosta appears to take it all at face value, saying that even today we find "dead mens bones of an incredible bignes" -- he would have made a good Mopologist).

Chap. ii. — Of the ancient Inhabitants of New Spaine, and how the Navatlacas came thither.

The antient and first Inhabitants of those provinces, which wee call New Spaine, were men very barbarous and savage, which lived onely by hunting, for this reason they were called Chichimecas. They did neither sowe nor till the ground, neither lived they together ; for all their exercise was to hunt, wherein they were very expert. They lived in the roughest partes of the mountaines beastlike, without any pollicie, and they went all naked. They hunted wilde beasts, hares, connies, weezles, mowles, wilde cattes, and birdes, yea uncleane beasts, as snakes, lizards, locusts, and wormes, whereon they fed, with some hearbs and rootes. They slept in the mountaines, in caves and in bushes, and the wives likewise went a hunting with their husbandes, leaving their yoong children in a little panier of reeds, tied to the boughs of a tree, which desired not to suck untill they were returned from hunting. They had no superiors, nor did acknowledge or worship any gods, neyther hadde any manner of ceremonies or religion. [...]

When all these Nations [Suchimilcos, Chalcas, Tepanecas, Culhua, Tlatluicas, Tlascaltecas] peopled these countries, the Chichimecas being the antient inhabitants, made no resistance, but fledde, and as people amazed [amassed] they hid themselves in the most obscure of the rockes. But those that inhabited on th' other side of the mountaine where the Tlascaltecas had planted themselves, did not suffer them in quiet, as the rest of the Chichimecas had done, but they put themselves in defence to preserve their country, and being giants, as the Histories report, they sought to expell the last comers, but they were vanquished by the policy of the Tlascaltecas, who counterfeiting a peace with them, they invited them to a great banquet, and when they were busiest in their drunkennes, there were some laide in ambush, who secretly stole away their weapons, which were great clubbes, targets, swords of wood, and other such armes. Then did they sodainely set upon them, and the Chichimecas seeking to defend themselves, they did want their armes, so as they fled to the mountaines and forrests adioyning [adjoining], where they pulled downe trees as if they had beene stalkes of lettices. But, in the end, the Tlascaltecas being armed, and marching in order, they defeated all the giants, not leaving one alive. We must not holde this of the giants to be strange or a fable; for, at this day, we finde dead mens bones of an incredible bignes.


so, yeah... elephants... good lord.
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_palerobber
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _palerobber »

by the way, offered without comment, this is one of he works cited by the FAIR article...

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_beastie
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _beastie »

I believe that certain apologists deliberately use old resources that aren't widely available because they know they aren't using the sources fairly. Lying for the Lord. One day the church will be proven true, and it will all be validated in the end, so what's a little lying for the Lord today matter, as long as it preserves the faith of the weak?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Dr. Shades
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _Dr. Shades »

palerobber wrote:. . . they invited them to a great banquet, and when they were busiest in their drunkennes, there were some laide in ambush, who secretly stole away their weapons, which were great clubbes, targets, swords of wood, and other such armes.

What's FAIR's explanation for how the mammoths were invited to a banquet, how the mammoths got drunk, and how the mammoths brought weapons with them?
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_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Dr. Shades wrote:
palerobber wrote:. . . they invited them to a great banquet, and when they were busiest in their drunkennes, there were some laide in ambush, who secretly stole away their weapons, which were great clubbes, targets, swords of wood, and other such armes.

What's FAIR's explanation for how the mammoths were invited to a banquet, how the mammoths got drunk, and how the mammoths brought weapons with them?

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_sunstoned
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _sunstoned »

Tobin wrote:You do realize the Jaredites could have brought the elephants with them.


In their submarine boats? How much does a elephant eat in a day or a week or a year?
_Tobin
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _Tobin »

sunstoned wrote:
Tobin wrote:You do realize the Jaredites could have brought the elephants with them.


In their submarine boats? How much does a elephant eat in a day or a week or a year?


You do realize they had to feed themselves and had other animals with them as well. Clearly these craft had sufficient room for food and those animals (as well as all the equipment to keep them alive). And they may have brought immature animals with them. A baby elephant weighs about 200 pounds when it is born and an immature animal wouldn't eat nearly as much as a full grown elephant.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_palerobber
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _palerobber »

Dr. Shades wrote:
palerobber wrote:. . . they invited them to a great banquet, and when they were busiest in their drunkennes, there were some laide in ambush, who secretly stole away their weapons, which were great clubbes, targets, swords of wood, and other such armes.

What's FAIR's explanation for how the mammoths were invited to a banquet, how the mammoths got drunk, and how the mammoths brought weapons with them?


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_Runtu
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Re: Sometimes Apologists Piss Me Off

Post by _Runtu »

palerobber wrote:Runtu,

footnote 11 of that FAIR article also directly cites Acosta (in addition to Torquemada) and the good Father does in fact use the word "lettices" in his description (see p. 449-454 excepted below).

reading Acosta, we find that what FAIR breathlessly paints as "monstrous ogre-like giants" are just a pre-agrarian tribe (of humans) called the Chichimecas, and Acosta further explains that there are still tribes like this living in New Spain. so these are not "legendary giants" but rather an actual displaced people whom the victors created some tall tales about (though Acosta appears to take it all at face value, saying that even today we find "dead mens bones of an incredible bignes" -- he would have made a good Mopologist).

Chap. ii. — Of the ancient Inhabitants of New Spaine, and how the Navatlacas came thither.

The antient and first Inhabitants of those provinces, which wee call New Spaine, were men very barbarous and savage, which lived onely by hunting, for this reason they were called Chichimecas. They did neither sowe nor till the ground, neither lived they together ; for all their exercise was to hunt, wherein they were very expert. They lived in the roughest partes of the mountaines beastlike, without any pollicie, and they went all naked. They hunted wilde beasts, hares, connies, weezles, mowles, wilde cattes, and birdes, yea uncleane beasts, as snakes, lizards, locusts, and wormes, whereon they fed, with some hearbs and rootes. They slept in the mountaines, in caves and in bushes, and the wives likewise went a hunting with their husbandes, leaving their yoong children in a little panier of reeds, tied to the boughs of a tree, which desired not to suck untill they were returned from hunting. They had no superiors, nor did acknowledge or worship any gods, neyther hadde any manner of ceremonies or religion. [...]

When all these Nations [Suchimilcos, Chalcas, Tepanecas, Culhua, Tlatluicas, Tlascaltecas] peopled these countries, the Chichimecas being the antient inhabitants, made no resistance, but fledde, and as people amazed [amassed] they hid themselves in the most obscure of the rockes. But those that inhabited on th' other side of the mountaine where the Tlascaltecas had planted themselves, did not suffer them in quiet, as the rest of the Chichimecas had done, but they put themselves in defence to preserve their country, and being giants, as the Histories report, they sought to expell the last comers, but they were vanquished by the policy of the Tlascaltecas, who counterfeiting a peace with them, they invited them to a great banquet, and when they were busiest in their drunkennes, there were some laide in ambush, who secretly stole away their weapons, which were great clubbes, targets, swords of wood, and other such armes. Then did they sodainely set upon them, and the Chichimecas seeking to defend themselves, they did want their armes, so as they fled to the mountaines and forrests adioyning [adjoining], where they pulled downe trees as if they had beene stalkes of lettices. But, in the end, the Tlascaltecas being armed, and marching in order, they defeated all the giants, not leaving one alive. We must not holde this of the giants to be strange or a fable; for, at this day, we finde dead mens bones of an incredible bignes.


so, yeah... elephants... good lord.


Thanks for that. So it seems they were using an English translation, where I was reading the original Spanish, which reads as follows (Torquemada is quoting Acosta):

echando mano a sus ramas, asi las desgajaban como otros deshojaran solas las hojas


It literally means "grabbing the tree branches [with their hands (mano)], thus they tore them off as others might strip off only the leaves[/quote]

So, it's not pulling down trees but breaking off branches. In other words, these giants were big and strong, but not enough to pull down trees. It makes me wonder if the English translator was intentionally exaggerating.

The other thing to note is that, despite what Brown and Roper tell us, Torquemada doesn't say these were elephant-like ogres, but rather he links them to the passages in Genesis that say there were giants in the land after (according to some interpretations) some angels had sex with human women.
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