Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem is You

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_Chap
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem

Post by _Chap »

CoJCoLDS wrote: ... we now have only a fraction of the papyri he had in his possession. Eyewitnesses spoke of “a long roll” or multiple “rolls” of papyrus. Since only fragments survive, it is likely that much of the papyri accessible to Joseph when he translated the book of Abraham is not among these fragments.


I'm sorry? I've been watching this board for years, and I have several times seen clear and pretty well conclusive rebuttals of:

1. The claim that there is credible eye-witness testimony of

“a long roll” or multiple “rolls” of papyrus
used by Smith.

2. The claim that the scrolls we have today are not substantially those from which Smith translated.

Have these issues somehow been rendered moot again?
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_lostindc
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem

Post by _lostindc »

DarkHelmet wrote:
Holy Ghost wrote:That's sort of the twist on the Book of Abraham that Holland took in the I'm-not-a-dodo interview with the BBC--Holland admitted to not knowing how the 'translation' happened, but that didn't matter. So now, Givens is trying it. Doesn't matter how it came to be. The Book of Abraham has some neat-o ideas. Thus, it doesn't matter if it came about as Joseph Smith and the church say it did.


Yeah, lots of neato ideas. The Kolob revelation totally revolutionized modern astronomy. We also learned about the origins of the black race. Where would the world be without the revealed knowledge in the Book of Abraham?


LOL, haha
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_Shulem
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem is You

Post by _Shulem »

Does anyone know where Terryl Givens lives? Would someone please go over to his house and spray paint the name of the Egyptian king in Facsimile No. 3 on the side of his house?

:twisted:

Terryl Givens is a lying bastard for the Lord and the Mormon church.

I just now decided that I will NEVER, EVER, say or write the full name of the church ever again. It's the Mormon church, period!

Mormon CHURCH!

No more saying or writing the full name of the church. I'm doing this to show disrespect to President NelSatan and hoping he croaks soon. That dirty old bastard.

:twisted:
_fetchface
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem

Post by _fetchface »

DarkHelmet wrote:Yeah, lots of neato ideas. The Kolob revelation totally revolutionized modern astronomy. We also learned about the origins of the black race. Where would the world be without the revealed knowledge in the Book of Abraham?

Yeah, being Mormon means playing a game of "The Emperor's New Clothes" every day of your life. You have to talk about garbage like the Book of Abraham, which has no real practical value except as an example of mediocre 19th century biblical fanfiction, as if it is the most magical and insightful thing on earth. You have to pretend that the most boring hour possible (sacrament meeting) is the highlight of your week. You have to pretend that you are learning new things every time you attend the temple over and over and over...

If you don't think boring, mundane crap is special then you aren't a faithful, spiritual person. Which in Mormonese, means you are a worthless pile of crap.

What a stupid way to live. I feel kind of bad for Givens that his need to feel that Joseph's obvious fraud is true makes him defend the Book of Abraham as something interesting. It's one thing to defend it as true, but quite another to say it is profound. Even if it is true, it's boring garbage without any unique insight.
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_Gadianton
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem

Post by _Gadianton »

What a ridiculous article.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Stem
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem

Post by _Stem »

I'm not feeling too concerned if any particular Mormon wants to say something like, "well if you believe it then it doesn't really matter if there are problems." Honestly I don't know what else to expect. Believing takes a special kind of imagination.

I've found myself mostly disinterested in Book of Abraham stuff for years. I've tried to care but even as an active member I was confused why anyone did care. It's largely ignored in the church anyway. I mean that one passage in Abr 3 is fawned over to a ridiculous extent but other than that, I couldn't figure out why anyone cared and thus couldn't care myself. So, I wanted to comment on the values he mentions.

Premortal existence was already well establishing in Smith’s thought by 1832; in the Book of Abraham, we see ourselves in a primordial setting, acting as independent agents, participating in the counsel and decisions that resulted in our mortal embodiment.


That's not what I see. I see a few elites mixed in with a bunch of nobodies and the bunch of nobodies presumably making a decision based on little information, while otherwise fawning over big personalities. I mean it's a pretty silly scenario in the sense that it's extremely black or white. It's as if people are in a big group, there's a plain manifest God directly in front of them, a group of fancy-pants'd confident proud people shroud in elitist clothes or something, and a couple of the fancy-pants'd vying for the attention of the supreme leader and the group of nobodies by perhaps their sheer looks, and likely nothing more. It's like fans picking sides in a football game based on which mascot looks cutest or coolest.

As evident in a Creation account wherein the Gods work cooperatively, councils are introduced as the mode of government pertaining to Divine Beings. Joseph was, in fact, at this moment working to shift the burden of church leadership more emphatically from himself to presiding councils, and that principle of shared governance (in which women are increasingly participating) continues to unfold today.


He's getting far more out of this than I. I think it's true Joseph got acquainted somewhat with the divine council ideas in the Bible and ran with it, by saying Gods instead of God in this rendering of the creation account. But I don't know it explicitly teaches councils, nor that the Church should be presided by councils, nor that women should increasingly participate. That's some rather imaginative summary though.

The book also establishes priesthood as an eternal power, one that precedes the organization of the earth itself. It thus is not a temporary dispensation of ecclesiastical power effective in a mortal sphere, as it is for Catholics. It has cosmic, eternal significance, is participated in by women as well as men, and finds its fullest expression in those covenants and promises and binding rituals of the temple.


Women are participating with the priesthood? It mentions a couple of women and suddenly there is some explained order that is less than patriarchal in a strict sense? Where did he get that from? I mean, this appears to be not much more than taking liberties with creative license, hoping to make the record seem useful. But I don't see it saying much of any of this. And from my perspective the concept of priesthood is more of a detriment to the church than a help-meet (like a woman is).
_Maksutov
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem

Post by _Maksutov »

The church is fine; the problem is you.

Blame the victim. An abusive culture. Givens should be ashamed. :rolleyes:

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Nelson is absolutely corrupt. The church parasitically exploits its hosts, as a social disease as well as a cult.
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_Analytics
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem is You

Post by _Analytics »

Givens quotes John Evans as saying, “it does not matter . . . so far as philosophical or practical purposes are concerned, where or how he got them. The only questions we may properly ask about them [is] are they true?” If we grant that, Joseph Smith's claims about what the papyrus actually was has a lot of bearing on whether he's the kind of guy that likes to make up dramatic stories rather than tell the honest truth, which in turn has bearing on whether the Book of Abraham is a dramatic story that Joseph Smith made up.

The case for the Book of Abraham would be stronger if Joseph Smith would have said, "I have know idea what these scrolls say nor how to translate them. But I feel inspired by God to reveal something that Abraham once wrote but is now destroyed and forgotten.'
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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_Shulem
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem is You

Post by _Shulem »

Analytics wrote:The case for the Book of Abraham would be stronger if Joseph Smith would have said, "I have know idea what these scrolls say nor how to translate them. But I feel inspired by God to reveal something that Abraham once wrote but is now destroyed and forgotten.'


You hit the hammer on the nail!

We know that the Book of Abraham isn't true just as we know there is no king's name written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3 and that Anubis as labeled is really a god, not a slave.

I know the Book of Abraham is not true. I know it with every fiber of my being -- 100%, sure knowledge. Nothing doubting and nothing wondering. It's NOT true. Period.

I have a solid testimony of that. There is nothing the Mormons can do or say to break my testimony.
_kairos
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Re: Terryl Givens: The Book of Abraham is Fine; the Problem

Post by _kairos »

Shulem wrote:
Analytics wrote:The case for the Book of Abraham would be stronger if Joseph Smith would have said, "I have know idea what these scrolls say nor how to translate them. But I feel inspired by God to reveal something that Abraham once wrote but is now destroyed and forgotten.'


You hit the hammer on the nail!

We know that the Book of Abraham isn't true just as we know there is no king's name written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3 and that Anubis as labeled is really a god, not a slave.

I know the Book of Abraham is not true. I know it with every fiber of my being -- 100%, sure knowledge. Nothing doubting and nothing wondering. It's NOT true. Period.

I have a solid testimony of that. There is nothing the Mormons can do or say to break my testimony.



Is not TG a Fellow of Renown at the Maxwell Institute now ? I hope his bosses did not say: "Terryl my brother, now that John Gee is gone how about you try to salvage this Book of Abraham disaster( in my work days we would label such a project as "reviving a dead cat"). TG should begin his mopologetic study of the Book of Abraham by watching everything Dan Vogel has produced. If he does with a sincere heart he will surely lose his religion and come over to the truth side.
If i were TG and wanted to remain Mormon i would stay away from the BOA- no one can revive that black cat or even name that king you ask about.

just sayin
k
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