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Amazing! Well done!!

All of this work, fresh after receiving a Lifetime Achievement Award? You, sir, are a force!

What will the 2020s bring? Predictions?

It's amazing how a decade has flown by already actually! And Scratch just keeps on producing stellar materials for reading and learning. Scratch I am unworthy to even be in the same room as thou, however, thanks for letting me roam the halls of Cassius.... I might even do a little bit of sweeping periodically.

grindael wrote:What about the Anonymous Church Essays in response to the CES Letter? They employed about every Mopologist in the Church to contribute to them. They have had a huge impact on the Church and critics. Overall, an interesting and informative read. Thank you, Scratch.

I like the mention of the essays. JSPP was a big project as well. Principles behind it were petty anti-mopologetic--an effort to make source material available without apoligeticexcuse making

Philo Sofee wrote:It's amazing how a decade has flown by already actually! And Scratch just keeps on producing stellar materials for reading and learning. Scratch I am unworthy to even be in the same room as thou, however, thanks for letting me roam the halls of Cassius.... I might even do a little bit of sweeping periodically.

I agree. Dr. Scratch is the most amazing force when it comes to countering Mormon apologetics. He's a super hero!

The blue ribbon and first prize goes to Dr. Scratch.

Stem wrote:

grindael wrote:What about the Anonymous Church Essays in response to the CES Letter? They employed about every Mopologist in the Church to contribute to them. They have had a huge impact on the Church and critics. Overall, an interesting and informative read. Thank you, Scratch.

I like the mention of the essays. JSPP was a big project as well. Principles behind it were petty anti-mopologetic--an effort to make source material available without apoligeticexcuse making

I still wonder what is conveniently left out, if anything, from the JSPP. The project sounds like a defendant complying with a discovery request or the government complying with a FOIA request in a lawsuit where only the defendant or government knows what is there and perhaps selectively puts out some mildly damaging information but leaves the true golden nuggets hidden from view. It also allows the church to claim some transparency while controlling the "transparency." Too bad someone like Dan Vogel or Grindael couldn't be a part of the project.

I am grateful for the kind words! Happy New Year to you all!

Stem wrote:I would like to add a challenge. Can those folks amounting to what seems like the people who make up the Interpreter (and Book of Mormon Central if they do not all overlap) come up with the corollary to this fine piece of history rendering? What might they say has been the cause of all the events that have unfolded over the past decade, perhaps the most embarrassing decade they have faced? They must have a narrative crafted that exonerates them and places them squarely as the victims of satan's clever and subtle dealings. They just must.

I really wish they'd do this, too. For example, they've been saying for years that they have a different "version" of the "Death of FARMS" story stowed away in their pocket somewhere. They keep claiming that they're going to tell the story "one day," but when will that day come? Nobody has an infinite amount of time. There's no better moment than the present. Maybe we should just put that on our wish list for the 2020s?

Dr. Moore:

Dr. Moore wrote:What will the 2020s bring? Predictions?

Very difficult to say. This year, I think the most anticipated "happening" has got to be the Witnesses movie. I'm genuinely looking forward to that. (Did you know that the lead actor--the guy portraying Joseph Smith--has a criminal record? Did they cast him for that reason?) I predict that the Witnesses movie is going to make some kind of a splash. Whether that winds up being "good" or "bad" for the Mopologists is anybody's guess.

Grindael:

grindael wrote:What about the Anonymous Church Essays in response to the CES Letter? They employed about every Mopologist in the Church to contribute to them. They have had a huge impact on the Church and critics. Overall, an interesting and informative read. Thank you, Scratch.

You make a good point: I've always felt ambivalent on the question of whether or not the essays count as Mopologetics, which, of course, are defined primarily by bad behavior (viciousness, lying, misogyny, etc.). The essays were certainly an important apologetic effort, but do they really cross the line over into full-blown Mopologetics? I have a hard time seeing that they truly do. That said, I think it's undeniable that they've had an impact, as you rightly point out.

The Watson Letter fiasco rightly takes the number one spot of the decade for Mopologetic news. It's a sleeper topic for sure, I myself forget about it and then a reference gets dropped now and again bringing it to mind. Every couple of years (and that could be read as 1.5-3.2) I go back and read the epic thread Professor Scratch linked to on this board from start to finish. For those who haven't read it from beginning to end, I would encourage you to do so. I think what makes it so great is that all the big players reveal their hands on a topic of monumental importance for them and stumble over themselves as they do so. I think it's a window into the broader world of Mopologetics, actually. None of the apologists appear to be interested in the truth of the matter, they make excuses ad hoc as they go along, as critics point out inconsistencies and flaws, and so long as they feel they plausibly answered the latest inconsistency they are perfectly satisfied with where they're at in life. Mopologetics doesn't seem to ever have been interested in figuring out the truth of anything.

The LGT at one time could have been pointed to as a serious proactive endeavor, but now that we've learned it was essentially "borrowed" in complete form from elsewhere, it loses the little credibility it may have had as a serious pursuit of the apologists.

I was struck by two seemingly unrelated pieces of data. The Watson Letter, and the "No slam dunks!" mandate given by Elder Maxwell. One could think of the walk of the Mopologist as one of great faith with only a glimpse or two permitted into the heavenly realm from decade to decade. One would think it shouldn't be so difficult: At any time, the 15 prophets, seers, and revelators could simply tell us about the real geography, and if 15 revelators can't do that, surely they can tell us what the Church's position is on the broader topic of geography models, but even that seems insurmountably difficult.

The implication is clear: The entire career or FARMS and post-FARMS apologetics has been somewhat apostate. Even in the letter to Bradford, the "no slam dunks" instance is cited. Considering their visibility, the fact that they've leaned on these two paltry pieces of data to justify their legitimacy over a 40+ year period itself is evidence that they really aren't very legitimate.

Dr. Moore wrote:What will the 2020s bring? Predictions?

Dr. Scratch alluded to the continued rise of the Fictional theories. As I've indicated elsewhere, I expect the apologists themselves to embrace the Book of Mormon as fiction in the next 10 years. On the whole, I think this will be the decade where faithful interpretations of the Book of Mormon will admit that it isn't history, and it does not come from real historical documents.

Yet another stellar piece of work, Dr. Scratch. Great research and analysis begets valuable comments and conversations. Truly one of the outstanding posts of the decade.

Thank you.

Gadianton wrote:The Watson Letter fiasco rightly takes the number one spot of the decade for Mopologetic news.

[SNIP!]

I think what makes it so great is that all the big players reveal their hands on a topic of monumental importance for them and stumble over themselves as they do so. I think it's a window into the broader world of Mopologetics, actually. None of the apologists appear to be interested in the truth of the matter, they make excuses ad hoc as they go along, as critics point out inconsistencies and flaws, and so long as they feel they plausibly answered the latest inconsistency they are perfectly satisfied with where they're at in life. Mopologetics doesn't seem to ever have been interested in figuring out the truth of anything.

The LGT at one time could have been pointed to as a serious proactive endeavor, but now that we've learned it was essentially "borrowed" in complete form from elsewhere, it loses the little credibility it may have had as a serious pursuit of the apologists.

It really is baffling. Think for a moment: the whole 2nd Watson fiasco was a result of them *trying to defend* this bankrupt theory! And who is it who would have been "dunking" on them in this case? Critics? (No, because critics think that all of it is made up.) The Heartlanders? If so, those are fellow Latter-day Saints, which poses a problem. So, who's left, then? Why did they need to go to such lengths to defend the LGT? Bear in mind that this was years and years' worth of lying, along with apparent manipulation of high-ranking Church officials. I guess in the end they were just trying to defend their own legitimacy and place in the power structure. Boy, what a spectacular failure it was, though. I really do think that this was a precursor to them getting kicked out of the MI.

Nowadays, they seem to have practically given up on the LGT. I wish someone would go over to "SeN" and directly challenge the Mopologists on it--asking them if that's really the model they endorse. I bet you won't get an affirmative answer--instead, it will be something wishy-washy.