DiscussMormonism.com

Smac put out a pretty nice post some time back.
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/724 ... -of-faith/

I agree with is 5 points. I hate to say it because the whole post was a nice gesture, but to me he doesn't do a very good job in following his own counsel.

Stem wrote:Smac put out a pretty nice post some time back.
http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/724 ... -of-faith/

I agree with is 5 points. I hate to say it because the whole post was a nice gesture, but to me he doesn't do a very good job in following his own counsel.

SMAC refuses to accept that the statement from Joseph Smith clearly contradicts his claim. Another poster distorts the entire thread as being about Sam Young himself, when it was categorically about the question of whether "apostasy is worse than murder" in the LDS church.

I would generally agree with the believers on that thread - I don't think, generally speaking, apostasy is thought of as being worse than murder. Joseph Smith and other early church leaders might thought something like that, but I don't think that's generally how it's thought of today.

Gray Ghost wrote:I would generally agree with the believers on that thread - I don't think, generally speaking, apostasy is thought of as being worse than murder. Joseph Smith and other early church leaders might thought something like that, but I don't think that's generally how it's thought of today.

Well I agreed with that as well, but I argued that such a belief could be a reasonable conclusion of a believer. I think it's important for members to know that the messaging of the church can create confusion.

How is apostasy worse than murder in Mormonism? The "prophets" in Utah Territory went to great lengths to show us that it was. Breaking "Temple Covenants" (by any Elder) was to them... a dire thing. I do believe that the penalty for that was disembowelment...or having your throat cut, and those who were done in that way got to the afterlife and were declared "sons of perdition" and then were relegated to being little "Satan's" for the rest of eternity, until they were so used up that they could not be "recycled" anymore and finally faded out of existence. So taught Young and others. Nothing's changed folks, where are the comments from the Authorities? Silent as Sphinx's they are. Same as with Adam-god, etc., it's to precious a pearl to waste casting before swine, or to make a Dodo out of an "Apostle" for bothering to comment on it.

So yeah, apostasy was worse than murder. At least with murder you got a kingdom of glory. Do I need to drag out the plethora of quotes I have?

grindael wrote:Do I need to drag out the plethora of quotes I have?

No. Anyone with half a brain knows that this is the only logical interpretation of the "Sons of Perdition" doctrine.

The doctrine is stupid and doesn't make moral sense. That's why people will come up with all sorts of qualifiers to raise the bar to an impossibly high standard for someone to become a Son of Perdition. It bothers them that apostasy is worse than murder. How many times have we heard people parrot something like, "Yeah but you have to have perfect knowledge and rebel against God, willing to have participated in Christ's crucifixion, yada yada yada?"

Of course killing someone is worse than telling God you don't want to play weird bureaucratic games, even if you had full knowledge of God's plan. Not wanting to play Mormon God's mind games doesn't make you a bad person. Some of us have had more than enough of Mormon God's "goodness" and "happiness" and just want to be left alone and would tell him so even if he appeared right now to us in the flesh.

I have no use for Mormon God, even if he is real and I were to be made sure of it. That doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me a good person, because I am capable of understanding how morally impaired Mormon God is.

Gray Ghost wrote:I would generally agree with the believers on that thread - I don't think, generally speaking, apostasy is thought of as being worse than murder. Joseph Smith and other early church leaders might thought something like that, but I don't think that's generally how it's thought of today.

The historical teachings of the church and the attitudes of the grass roots today frequently diverge. I take comfort in knowing that the average church member today has better moral sense than the leaders of the founding generation of the church. It just annoys me to no end watching otherwise smart people bend their minds into pretzels in an attempt to create consistency where there isn't any.

Yeah FF, I have the minutes of the "School of the Prophets' under John Taylor (easy to acquire) where they debated letting young people get their endowments because they might then apostatize and they actually went through the penalties and discussed them. They were proposing all kinds of things, even an Aaronic Priesthood endowment as a trial. (I kid you not). They were well aware of the doctrine and the implications of it. Young and his Danites and B-Boys made use of it for any enemies of the church. So did Smith. Why did Mountain Meadows happen, by the way? Because some were thought of as "apostates". And that was on Sept. 11, the anniversary of the day that Smith claimed that Zion would be redeemed (Sept. 11, 1836). That failed and Young and others always blamed the Missourians (where they thought the Fancher Party was from). And of course there was the revenge for Parley. Blood must be shed.

What would they do if another Brigham Young comes along? Would he have sway over them like a Donald Trump has over the Republicans today?

grindael wrote:How is apostasy worse than murder in Mormonism? The "prophets" in Utah Territory went to great lengths to show us that it was. Breaking "Temple Covenants" (by any Elder) was to them... a dire thing. I do believe that the penalty for that was disembowelment...or having your throat cut, and those who were done in that way got to the afterlife and were declared "sons of perdition" and then were relegated to being little "Satan's" for the rest of eternity, until they were so used up that they could not be "recycled" anymore and finally faded out of existence. So taught Young and others. Nothing's changed folks, where are the comments from the Authorities? Silent as Sphinx's they are. Same as with Adam-god, etc., it's to precious a pearl to waste casting before swine, or to make a Dodo out of an "Apostle" for bothering to comment on it.

So yeah, apostasy was worse than murder. At least with murder you got a kingdom of glory. Do I need to drag out the plethora of quotes I have?

And as a historical aside that I pointed out over at that board, it was not unprecedented for spiritual crimes to be seen as on par to or worse than murder in Colonial America. Giles Corey killed a servant by beating him and was fined. He was later accused as part of the witchcraft participants but did not plead, and for not pleading to the witchcraft charge, he suffered a death by pressing.

Meadowchik wrote:

Gray Ghost wrote:I would generally agree with the believers on that thread - I don't think, generally speaking, apostasy is thought of as being worse than murder. Joseph Smith and other early church leaders might thought something like that, but I don't think that's generally how it's thought of today.

Well I agreed with that as well, but I argued that such a belief could be a reasonable conclusion of a believer. I think it's important for members to know that the messaging of the church can create confusion.

Yes, I think that's definitely possible. When talking about individual church experiences, your mileage may vary - by a lot! And Sam might have been talking about something from his own experience, or going off by what people actually said to him when he was excommunicated.