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Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:50 pm

consiglieri wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:13 pm

In his only oblique reference to Dr. Ritner, Dr. Muhlestein states that "the Book of Abraham doesn't rise or fall on my opinion or reputation, or on another scholar's opinion or reputation." 13.03

Correct. So Kerry’s Egyptology Ph.D. has no relevance either way. I believe this defense against Ritner is nothing other than the Kamikaze method, the suicidal last resort.

And thus Kerry and John have reduced themselves to average devotional teachers, who happen to have irrelevant side hobbies in Egyptology.

consiglieri wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:12 pm

An interesting exercise is to count how many times he says, "I don't know" when talking about what he can conclude academically about the Book of Abraham. I am pretty sure the only time he says, "I know" is when talking about a spiritual witness.

Unofficial Tally--Dr. Muhlestein says "I don't know" or its variants 15 times during this 18-minute video.

aussieguy55 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:34 pm

They have deleted Dan Vogel's comment but not mine as yet.

Update from Kerry Muhlestein re: Raising the Abrahamic Discourse
September 2, 2020 by Trevor Holyoak 1 Comment

[This is an update to a post from August 25, Raising the Abrahamic Discourse: An Essay on the Nature of Dialogues About the Book of Abraham]

UPDATE
I believe that academic dialogue is important and can be fruitful. There are many scholars who are academically interested in the Book of Abraham, its translation, and its content. Some scholars have even made such study their life’s work. (This is not unusual in many specialized subject areas.)

Regardless of the area of study, all scholars approach any topic with their own sets of existing beliefs. It is impossible for a scholar to be a “blank slate” when it comes to any field of study. It is no surprise that my existing beliefs are consistent with what I view as the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. It is likewise no surprise that others, including Professor Ritner, start with a set of beliefs that preclude divine involvement in the work of Joseph Smith.

With that in mind and because I am truly interested in academic dialogue about the Book of Abraham, before I posted any kind of response online, I personally contacted Professor Ritner. I suggested that we work together on creating an academic volume on the subject. I suggested possible guidelines for doing so, possible academic venues, possible editors, and even a potential table of contents. I modeled it after volumes on contested issues that have been successfully done in academia elsewhere. The goal would be to have a balanced approach observing the highest academic rigor and tone, creating a dialogue with each other rather than having parties who speak past each other. If done correctly, I believe that such an approach can lead to real progress.

Dr. Ritner graciously declined, citing his current health circumstances. This is very understandable. I have responded, letting him know that I am open to other options as long as we can find something that would adhere to appropriate academic standards. I have also offered to fly to Chicago, once pandemic conditions have stabilized, to discuss this matter with him.

Finally, I hope that no one will speculate about Professor Ritner’s reasons for declining my invitation. The best thing for all of us is that others do not presume they know what either his or my intentions are, and that we are both given a reasonable space to work towards something together in the midst of his difficult circumstances. I believe it is possible to make true academic progress in this matter, and will continue to work towards making that happen.

Kerry Muhlestein, September 2, 2020

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2020/09 ... -discourse

aussieguy55 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:34 pm

They have deleted Dan Vogel's comment but not mine as yet.

Everybody Wang Chung wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:59 pm

aussieguy55 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:34 pm

They have deleted Dan Vogel's comment but not mine as yet.

Why on earth did they delete Dan Vogel’s comment? It was professional and academic. There were no personal attacks or anything remotely disparaging.

Good Lord! Those Mopologists sure can’t handle open and honest debates.

consiglieri wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:11 pm

"You have to say that Joseph Smith was hundreds of times luckier than any other person that has ever lived on Earth to have gotten all of these things so right."15.35

Hundreds? Sounds like an exaggeration.

The same kind of "millions of mummies" exaggeration that got Dr. Muhlestein's permit to dig in Egypt revoked.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:54 am

Because they will lose, and they know it. It's why discoursing with them is a waste of time. They will always make sure things are loaded to favor them one way or another. The Gospel cannot uphold itself, it needs supporting apologetic lies to make it coherent. That is, truly, all one needs to know.